A Design for Death(1843magazine.com)
1843magazine.com
A Design for Death
https://www.1843magazine.com/people/a-design-for-death-meeting-the-bad-boy-of-the-euthanasia-movement
11 comments
I can't manage to read this. At one time, I likely would have taken the euthanasia option if it had been available to me.
My life remains a living hell in some ways, but mostly for financial/social reasons. My physical suffering is substantially less.
I can't begin to express both how very much I am for the right to die and how very much I know that, given an easy out, most people won't do the hard stuff. So something like this can easily go very bad places.
There was an American, I think also nicknamed Dr. Death, who was providing euthanasia (illegally). A lot of his patients/clients were chronically ill women who didn't want to be a burden on their family.
One woman in particular seemed like she wanted to die primarily because she had a shitty, unsupportive family, not because her medical issue was really so serious that suicide seemed like a reasonable choice.
Chronically ill or disabled men are much more likely to marry someone and let her physically take care of him, especially if they were able bodied at one time and have a decent income still. It doesn't even have to be a great income.
I read an article once about a study of children in some less developed country where boys were valued more than girls. Boys were fed slightly better. Boys were taken to the doctor slightly sooner -- like in the evening versus "Oh, let's give it a few hours and see how she feels come morning."
Although this was not a case of girls being horribly abused, it was just a case of boys being a little bit pampered, the difference in outcomes could be measured in mortality.
In a world where racism, classism, sexism, etc are still rampant, a death machine has all kinds of potential for horrifying unintended consequences. And those consequences are a sort that are hard to talk about without sounding like a loon or conspiracy theory nutter because the forces at play are fairly subtle and human psychology innately tends to handwave them off as not important.
My life remains a living hell in some ways, but mostly for financial/social reasons. My physical suffering is substantially less.
I can't begin to express both how very much I am for the right to die and how very much I know that, given an easy out, most people won't do the hard stuff. So something like this can easily go very bad places.
There was an American, I think also nicknamed Dr. Death, who was providing euthanasia (illegally). A lot of his patients/clients were chronically ill women who didn't want to be a burden on their family.
One woman in particular seemed like she wanted to die primarily because she had a shitty, unsupportive family, not because her medical issue was really so serious that suicide seemed like a reasonable choice.
Chronically ill or disabled men are much more likely to marry someone and let her physically take care of him, especially if they were able bodied at one time and have a decent income still. It doesn't even have to be a great income.
I read an article once about a study of children in some less developed country where boys were valued more than girls. Boys were fed slightly better. Boys were taken to the doctor slightly sooner -- like in the evening versus "Oh, let's give it a few hours and see how she feels come morning."
Although this was not a case of girls being horribly abused, it was just a case of boys being a little bit pampered, the difference in outcomes could be measured in mortality.
In a world where racism, classism, sexism, etc are still rampant, a death machine has all kinds of potential for horrifying unintended consequences. And those consequences are a sort that are hard to talk about without sounding like a loon or conspiracy theory nutter because the forces at play are fairly subtle and human psychology innately tends to handwave them off as not important.
Dr. Death IRL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
It's a sentiment that I share and is echoed by many disabled people.
We're made to feel like we have no place in society. At some point euthanasia ceases being a choice when everyday the feeling that you shouldn't be alive is being reinforced.
It's something I'm trying to do something about. I was homeless for years. I run a number of websites and am starting some Reddits to try to put out useful information.
Thank you for commenting. It means something to me.
Thank you for commenting. It means something to me.
"Chronically ill or disabled men are much more likely to marry someone and let her physically take care of him"
I had the impression women tend more to fill the void that is "the meaning of life" with helping people. Many younger ones simply got some children and the older ones got a partner they could look after.
While helping others is generally a good thing, it also makes them more prone to being exploited than men.
I had the impression women tend more to fill the void that is "the meaning of life" with helping people. Many younger ones simply got some children and the older ones got a partner they could look after.
While helping others is generally a good thing, it also makes them more prone to being exploited than men.
I'm currently broke and so not in the mood to explain it again like the entire world is five year's old. That never appears to do any good whatsoever anyway.
Suffice it to say I have six years of college and I've been divorced more than a decade -- and celibate for medical reasons the entire time, so not looking for some man to "take care of," which isn't really my cup of tea anyway -- and the degree to which my gender is a factor in my intractable poverty makes me spit nails.
Suffice it to say I have six years of college and I've been divorced more than a decade -- and celibate for medical reasons the entire time, so not looking for some man to "take care of," which isn't really my cup of tea anyway -- and the degree to which my gender is a factor in my intractable poverty makes me spit nails.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.
I'm not offended. I'm just exhausted and feeling like trying to engage your above comment in good faith is a huge uphill battle that I'm extremely tired of trying to fight.
I never wanted to fight it to begin with. But it's essentially been unavoidable due to the detail of being a woman trying to support myself "in a man's world" as it were.
It's one of the things that makes me suicidal, which is also not something useful to talk about. No one ever reads that and concludes "It must be an impossibly bad problem that it makes her feel that way." No one ever reads that and goes "If I had been dealing with what she's been dealing with for more than a decade, I'd be suicidally depressed too. This really, really needs to change!"
Nope. It just gets interpreted as "Whiny bitch! No wonder no one wants to hire her! Also, shut up about your problems and quit making everything into Gender Wars!"
It doesn't make any difference how carefully I frame it, someone is pretty much guaranteed to say something amazingly shitty and dismissive.
Under other circumstances, I might be happy to talk with you about reasons why I'm skeptical that women really voluntarily choose and prefer to "care" about others. But I'm just not up for that discussion tonight and I also didn't want to not reply at all.
Have a good evening.
I never wanted to fight it to begin with. But it's essentially been unavoidable due to the detail of being a woman trying to support myself "in a man's world" as it were.
It's one of the things that makes me suicidal, which is also not something useful to talk about. No one ever reads that and concludes "It must be an impossibly bad problem that it makes her feel that way." No one ever reads that and goes "If I had been dealing with what she's been dealing with for more than a decade, I'd be suicidally depressed too. This really, really needs to change!"
Nope. It just gets interpreted as "Whiny bitch! No wonder no one wants to hire her! Also, shut up about your problems and quit making everything into Gender Wars!"
It doesn't make any difference how carefully I frame it, someone is pretty much guaranteed to say something amazingly shitty and dismissive.
Under other circumstances, I might be happy to talk with you about reasons why I'm skeptical that women really voluntarily choose and prefer to "care" about others. But I'm just not up for that discussion tonight and I also didn't want to not reply at all.
Have a good evening.
As Schopenhauer mentions, a good way to feel better about your situation is to consider those who are less fortunate.
I don’t see what your gender has to do with it. In South Africa I belong to a class of “previously disadvantaged” people. I choose to ignore this distinction and the advantages conferred on those “previously advantaged.” I even refuse to accept any advantages from the government arising as a result of my skin colour.
That difference might exist and sure it might make my life harder, but in my view life is about action not results and as long as my shoulder is to the wheel, one glance at the abject poverty around me is enough to keep me pushing.
I’m sorry to hear about your situation and wish you luck.
I don’t see what your gender has to do with it. In South Africa I belong to a class of “previously disadvantaged” people. I choose to ignore this distinction and the advantages conferred on those “previously advantaged.” I even refuse to accept any advantages from the government arising as a result of my skin colour.
That difference might exist and sure it might make my life harder, but in my view life is about action not results and as long as my shoulder is to the wheel, one glance at the abject poverty around me is enough to keep me pushing.
I’m sorry to hear about your situation and wish you luck.
The taboo against euthanasia is mostly after the spread of abrahamic religions.
Throughout history of our world, there has always been ways to end one’s own life, their loved ones and those of enemies in battle ..and during times of famine and pestilence.
The ‘immortal soul’ that has to meet the monotheistic maker changed everything because euthanasia means banishing saved souls to hell and hence becoming unsaved.
Edited to add: perhaps after spread of xianity. The Old Testament begins with a sacrifice after all. I am not terribly familiar with details re religions..correct me if I am wrong?
Throughout history of our world, there has always been ways to end one’s own life, their loved ones and those of enemies in battle ..and during times of famine and pestilence.
The ‘immortal soul’ that has to meet the monotheistic maker changed everything because euthanasia means banishing saved souls to hell and hence becoming unsaved.
Edited to add: perhaps after spread of xianity. The Old Testament begins with a sacrifice after all. I am not terribly familiar with details re religions..correct me if I am wrong?
The secular problem with this:
How do we make sure that people aren't forced into this?
How do we make sure that people aren't forced into this?
I think it would be great if people were required to answer a questionnaire with even a psych evaluation in person for wanting to end life.
I don’t think any person should ever be refused their request to die. I just think the information is valuable to obtain for going forward by designing society to be more favorable for people to want to live. Currently a lot of people with tremendous psychological pain are being forced to continue being in pain because people don’t want to let them end their life. People with depression should be able to have free will over their own life.
I don’t think any person should ever be refused their request to die. I just think the information is valuable to obtain for going forward by designing society to be more favorable for people to want to live. Currently a lot of people with tremendous psychological pain are being forced to continue being in pain because people don’t want to let them end their life. People with depression should be able to have free will over their own life.
>I don’t think any person should ever be refused their request to die.
The idea that abortion is some sort of settled issue because of "privacy," yet we are disallowed from controlling our own bodies in many, many other ways (hormone levels via steroids, as an example) is particularly absurd to me.
The idea that abortion is some sort of settled issue because of "privacy," yet we are disallowed from controlling our own bodies in many, many other ways (hormone levels via steroids, as an example) is particularly absurd to me.
> People with depression
Depression can usually be treated and results in less will to kill oneself. There is a good case to make that when you suffer from depression you are not yourself anymore.
Depression can usually be treated and results in less will to kill oneself. There is a good case to make that when you suffer from depression you are not yourself anymore.
By some estimates, a third of people who have depression have it in a treatment-resistant form: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4518696/ How much treatment would you require these patients to endure before granting them freedom?
You’re sense of “freedom” is kind of fucked.
Don’t load questions like that, it’s painfully annoying.
Anyway death is not freedom; what good is freedom when you aren’t around to enjoy it? Foolish notion
Don’t load questions like that, it’s painfully annoying.
Anyway death is not freedom; what good is freedom when you aren’t around to enjoy it? Foolish notion
I salute anyone with the conviction to plan and take their own life. What other sovereignty does another human have save over their own life?
Also your snark reveals some inherent metaphysical assumptions. They may or may not be wrong, but why assume we all hold them?
Also your snark reveals some inherent metaphysical assumptions. They may or may not be wrong, but why assume we all hold them?
My snark more comes from years of trudging through some pretty horrible experiences as well as a slew of mental problems.
I live with trauma that I deal with on a daily basis. Paranoia for days and a lot of pain.
I dont salute those who take there own lives; I’ve thought about taking mine for a decade before giving up on the idea. If you mean something to someone; don’t take your life, it hurts them way more then it hurts you to go on living. You can’t help anyone if you are dead; it’s rather selfish.
Suicide is for assholes or cowards; I award no points, your life is precious, make it worth living.
I live with trauma that I deal with on a daily basis. Paranoia for days and a lot of pain.
I dont salute those who take there own lives; I’ve thought about taking mine for a decade before giving up on the idea. If you mean something to someone; don’t take your life, it hurts them way more then it hurts you to go on living. You can’t help anyone if you are dead; it’s rather selfish.
Suicide is for assholes or cowards; I award no points, your life is precious, make it worth living.
Well, if you're going to be snarky about it, all I'll reply with is the famous Big Lebowski quote: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, _your_ opinion, man."
To play devil's advocate:
Isn't it problematic to measure success in treatment by will to kill oneself rather than by whether the patient ends up happy? It sort of reminds me of the sweatshops in China where instead of improving working conditions they just installed anti-suicide nets to keep people from jumping.
Isn't it problematic to measure success in treatment by will to kill oneself rather than by whether the patient ends up happy? It sort of reminds me of the sweatshops in China where instead of improving working conditions they just installed anti-suicide nets to keep people from jumping.
Most people are forced into it -- by things like pain, suffering, and the prospect of a future featuring more of the same.
What you're really getting at is being forced into it by humans and/or groups of humans, and when it comes to that, you'll have to delineate your categories, identify incentives, and then either counter those or eliminate them.
Two to consider would be greedy relatives looking for some kind of inheritance and health insurance companies hoping to avoid another million dollars in keeping someone alive.
What you're really getting at is being forced into it by humans and/or groups of humans, and when it comes to that, you'll have to delineate your categories, identify incentives, and then either counter those or eliminate them.
Two to consider would be greedy relatives looking for some kind of inheritance and health insurance companies hoping to avoid another million dollars in keeping someone alive.
A few years ago I read a newspaper article about an insurer in Oregon who told a customer they weren't going to pay for some needed medical care, and pointed out that OR had (just adopted) a legal suicide option.
I sometimes think about this incident, and wonder if the employee at the insurance company who brought this up got a raise.
I sometimes think about this incident, and wonder if the employee at the insurance company who brought this up got a raise.
How do we make sure this doesn't happen anyway with people flying to Basel? How do we make sure doctors don't overprescribe opioids and casually assume death is the best option? How do we stop people stockpiling drugs and killing themselves at home?
You're flying a strawman, if you think this is the killer reason (hah) this idea shouldn't happen.
We're not close to seeing these on the streets as in the opening scenes of Futurama.
You're flying a strawman, if you think this is the killer reason (hah) this idea shouldn't happen.
We're not close to seeing these on the streets as in the opening scenes of Futurama.
Given the profit motives in the healthcare system (in the United States at least), encouraging people to buy medical treatment seems like more ethically wrong than allowing planned death. The latter is hypothetically problematic, but the former is a textbook example of conflict of interest.
Wouldn’t it be same as making sure people are not forced to suicide ?
With suicide there would be at least police involvement and often an investigation.
It also seems logical that it would be easier to covertly force someone to take a socially acceptable option than a socially unacceptable option.
It also seems logical that it would be easier to covertly force someone to take a socially acceptable option than a socially unacceptable option.
Nitschke's other (previous, drug perfusion) death machine was on display in MONA in Hobart. its an otherwise pedestrian installation of a suitcase sized box, and a bag on a stand, next to a chaise longue. I found it very confronting. Normalized but somehow not normal.
He's a polarising figure. Saying something rational, but causing immense community disquiet when people come close to voting. (I believe he has the right of it, but successive State, Territory and Federal governments have shied away from the topic, the impact of the church on Australian polity is pretty big)
He's a polarising figure. Saying something rational, but causing immense community disquiet when people come close to voting. (I believe he has the right of it, but successive State, Territory and Federal governments have shied away from the topic, the impact of the church on Australian polity is pretty big)
Dr. Nitschke is from my home town right here. He was so close to getting voluntary euthanasia laws enacted in the Northern Territory, but the government backed out in the end.
I remember watching him demonstrate V1 of his 'machine in a suitcase' that people could use to end their lives. It was controlled by a PC, and the interface that the patient would use to click the confirmation dialogs to begin the last things they would see in the world was written in..... <shudder> ... Microsoft Access.
I remember watching him demonstrate V1 of his 'machine in a suitcase' that people could use to end their lives. It was controlled by a PC, and the interface that the patient would use to click the confirmation dialogs to begin the last things they would see in the world was written in..... <shudder> ... Microsoft Access.
Really old versions of Microsoft Access could use Clippy via VBA:
Set Clippy = Application.Assistant.NewBalloon
With Clippy
.Heading = "Human Deletion"
.Text = "It looks like you're trying to kill yourself"
.Icon = msoIconAlertWarning
.Button = msoButtonSetOK
.Show
End WithFor anyone interested in the death machine mentioned, here is a link to an image and description: https://exitinternational.net/about-exit/installations/
> The front-runner in the one-way journey to Switzerland is a New Zealander whom Nitschke has known for years. She’s not terminally ill, but is becoming increasingly disabled by macular degeneration – something she finds intolerable after a lifetime of reading for pleasure.
I am not so sure society is ready to embrace commercial euthanasia for non-fatal, non-painful diseases. Should someone with age related deafness be offered euthanasia because they find not being able to listen to music intolerable. Or how about a former runner with hip and knee problems?
I am not so sure society is ready to embrace commercial euthanasia for non-fatal, non-painful diseases. Should someone with age related deafness be offered euthanasia because they find not being able to listen to music intolerable. Or how about a former runner with hip and knee problems?
Why ought people not be able to request their own euthanasia? It seems like that's the ultimate form of self-determination. (I'm all for reasonable controls around it to ensure that it's a properly considered decision and not done on a whim or in an acute bout of feeling poorly, but I don't think that it needs a societally acceptable explanation, just a consistent, considered choice by the patient.)
And from the article: "But I know what I don’t want. I don’t want to be stuffed full of tubes with doctors hovering over me, pleased with themselves for keeping my heart beating for another five minutes, eking out every last painful second. That, to me, is dystopia.”
My feelings exactly.
My feelings exactly.
I don't want to go so far as saying that alone would make me consider suicide, but I was effectively deaf for a little over a week once in college with a sinus infection—mine, which I never even had one of until college so was unacquainted with at the time, get up to some weird shit with fair frequency, unfortunately.
Even so, I could still kind-of hear, just not well enough to understand people most of the time, or enjoy music whatsoever (zero enjoyment possible, just a muted mess), or tell how loudly I was talking (I ended up being way too quiet, mostly, I gather). I felt significantly cut off from everything and everyone around me.
It was pretty fucking bad, and I'm not even unusually into music or anything like that.
I'd have said being blind was 100% for sure worse than being deaf before that. Now? Hell, I don't know anymore. Blind's probably still worse, but deaf was awful. Either plus any one other significant problem and I bet I'd be giving... options some serious thought.
Even so, I could still kind-of hear, just not well enough to understand people most of the time, or enjoy music whatsoever (zero enjoyment possible, just a muted mess), or tell how loudly I was talking (I ended up being way too quiet, mostly, I gather). I felt significantly cut off from everything and everyone around me.
It was pretty fucking bad, and I'm not even unusually into music or anything like that.
I'd have said being blind was 100% for sure worse than being deaf before that. Now? Hell, I don't know anymore. Blind's probably still worse, but deaf was awful. Either plus any one other significant problem and I bet I'd be giving... options some serious thought.
Well, one could argue that quality of life is quite subjective and who better to judge that than the person themselves?
Quoting the article, "Then came the elective death in May 2018 of Nitschke’s friend, the 104-year-old botanist David Goodall, who refused to declare any serious condition beyond being “tired of life”" - there's a precedent there.
Quoting the article, "Then came the elective death in May 2018 of Nitschke’s friend, the 104-year-old botanist David Goodall, who refused to declare any serious condition beyond being “tired of life”" - there's a precedent there.
The ends don’t justify the means.
Sometimes to live and suffer a fate worse than death is better to die.
Also I hate this idea the they’re making death slick.
And the way the article is romanticizing a man who will assist you in, for many; a coward’s way out.
This worries me greatly; have we so quickly forgotten the past?
Also I hate this idea the they’re making death slick.
And the way the article is romanticizing a man who will assist you in, for many; a coward’s way out.
This worries me greatly; have we so quickly forgotten the past?
Needs to be combined with prompt cooling for cryopreservation.
I am 100% for the uber for death. People are suffering due to lack of resources and lack of innovation in medical field. Haven is better than hell on earth.
Off topic, but that double exposure feels out of place.
I think it is of note that voluntary euthanasia is becoming a more important issue at the present time. Due to various medical advancements and improved analgesia and supportive care, suffering is less now than at any other time in history.
One possibility is the particular life experiences and trajectory of the boomers is driving the phenomenon. Or maybe it is just the growing number of elderly and increasingly infirm.
One possibility is the particular life experiences and trajectory of the boomers is driving the phenomenon. Or maybe it is just the growing number of elderly and increasingly infirm.
Of my two grandmothers, she's the lucky one. The other was T-boned while driving by a pickup blasting through a stop sign. Her body was shattered and her freedom and mobility irrevocably taken. She spent the last two years of her life sequestered away in a nursing home, her mind deteriorating, her few nearby children visiting once a week at most, her husband dead 15 years hence.
Death sucks. But the hell on Earth we force people to endure while waiting for it to arrive doesn't seem much preferable.
Have an advance directive, folks.