The European startup ecosystem arrived(eu.techcrunch.com)
eu.techcrunch.com
The European startup ecosystem arrived
http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/01/27/the-european-startup-ecosystem-arrived-but-paul-carr-wasnt-paying-attention/
87 comments
I do get a fair amount of job offers from startups in London, but they are very inflexible about remote working (I'm in Scotland). Want me to move to London ? Sure, double whatever salary you're offering and I might consider it. Otherwise it would be a big drop in my standard of living - nice big apartment up here for cardboard box down there.
There is a lot of good talent in the UK, the problem is we have a massively over-centralized economy, which is bad for London (way too expensive to live for average workers, and infrastructure straining under excess population) and bad for the rest of the UK (no jobs). Contrast with Germany, which has a more distributed (and far healthier) economy - Berlin, Munich, Hamburg etc.
Remote working would help redress the imbalance but some startups for good and bad reasons are reluctant. And no, I could care less about twin monitors or aeron chairs.
There is a lot of good talent in the UK, the problem is we have a massively over-centralized economy, which is bad for London (way too expensive to live for average workers, and infrastructure straining under excess population) and bad for the rest of the UK (no jobs). Contrast with Germany, which has a more distributed (and far healthier) economy - Berlin, Munich, Hamburg etc.
Remote working would help redress the imbalance but some startups for good and bad reasons are reluctant. And no, I could care less about twin monitors or aeron chairs.
I totally empathise with this. When I'm looking for work I see lots of firms in London hiring, but I have no interest in moving there, and although commuting is just about doable for the very short term, it totally ruins my out of work life. I would happily work remotely, but no one ever offers this.
I'm not sure I quite understand the obsession companies have with London. There are plenty of talented people around the rest of the country.
I'm not sure I quite understand the obsession companies have with London. There are plenty of talented people around the rest of the country.
I can understand the obsession. As pointed out, the UK is massively centralized around a single city. Media ? London. Finance ? London. Politics ? London. And so on. There may be local centers of excellence elsewhere - and devolution has been an improvement - but if your startup relies on, for example, shmoozing clients or investors in the media or finance sectors, then London is where you want to be.
Personally, I think that's one thing (well that and our antiquated infrastructure and class system) that's holding the UK back, and it didn't used to be the case. But that's the situation we have.
However, there is no reason why people who don't need to shmooze with clients need to live in London or the Home Counties. If your job is coding, then remote working is a viable - and cheap - option, with the occasional company meeting every other month. A lot of companies have a lot of success with this model and, well-managed, it works well.
I think a lot of startups are still attached to some "Social Network" romantic ideal of a hackers' playground where we sit in Aeron chairs and eat pizza doing all-night coding sprints in between Nerf gun fights. However that has absolutely nothing to do with success or failure of a software project. A startup needs to adapt and economize and a huge office in central London is hardly the best way to do either. First, you are paying through the nose for office space you don't need, and second, it's hard to get people to work for you.
Personally, I think that's one thing (well that and our antiquated infrastructure and class system) that's holding the UK back, and it didn't used to be the case. But that's the situation we have.
However, there is no reason why people who don't need to shmooze with clients need to live in London or the Home Counties. If your job is coding, then remote working is a viable - and cheap - option, with the occasional company meeting every other month. A lot of companies have a lot of success with this model and, well-managed, it works well.
I think a lot of startups are still attached to some "Social Network" romantic ideal of a hackers' playground where we sit in Aeron chairs and eat pizza doing all-night coding sprints in between Nerf gun fights. However that has absolutely nothing to do with success or failure of a software project. A startup needs to adapt and economize and a huge office in central London is hardly the best way to do either. First, you are paying through the nose for office space you don't need, and second, it's hard to get people to work for you.
That spells out perfectly the recipe needed for a fast-moving innovative risktaking startup - the pizza, the schmoozing, the all-nighters.
Working remotely and meeting a couple times a month? Preposterous in the startup environment. We're talking Agile daily standups, sharing screens and keyboards during all-nighters, doing a pitch at an hour's notice, recruiting in the coffee shop.
Its fine to contract remotely, perhaps be a peripheral player in a startup, but to be an employee, much less a founder, there's no way to do it half-way.
Working remotely and meeting a couple times a month? Preposterous in the startup environment. We're talking Agile daily standups, sharing screens and keyboards during all-nighters, doing a pitch at an hour's notice, recruiting in the coffee shop.
Its fine to contract remotely, perhaps be a peripheral player in a startup, but to be an employee, much less a founder, there's no way to do it half-way.
There are various reasons, but one of the big one is because the talent pool isn't large enough in most places.
It's hard to get someone to move to London for a job, but it's even harder to get someone to move to a smaller city, so you get much more restricted to the local talent pool.
You see hubs of companies around university towns with good CS programs (Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, Edinburgh) as universities draw talent in from a wider area, but for most cities there simply aren't enough people in a concentrated area.
It's hard to get someone to move to London for a job, but it's even harder to get someone to move to a smaller city, so you get much more restricted to the local talent pool.
You see hubs of companies around university towns with good CS programs (Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, Edinburgh) as universities draw talent in from a wider area, but for most cities there simply aren't enough people in a concentrated area.
I live in (near) a smaller city (70,000) with a University. We have a vigorous startup landscape.
There is no monopoly on brains in a large city. In fact, as my Aunt Kate used to say, Honey attracts Flies. Big cities have a disproportionate share of not-so-good players. In smaller towns you can only stay if you're employable, have a modicum of skills.
Still, there's many other drawbacks - scarce investment, more difficult to find markets, absolutely bounded set of talent, hiring inertia (folks tend to stick to their job).
There is no monopoly on brains in a large city. In fact, as my Aunt Kate used to say, Honey attracts Flies. Big cities have a disproportionate share of not-so-good players. In smaller towns you can only stay if you're employable, have a modicum of skills.
Still, there's many other drawbacks - scarce investment, more difficult to find markets, absolutely bounded set of talent, hiring inertia (folks tend to stick to their job).
"Sure, double whatever salary you're offering and I might consider it. Otherwise it would be a big drop in my standard of living - nice big apartment up here for cardboard box down there."
I think this gets to the heart of the cultural difference between the UK and California in terms of startups. I get the feeling that people working for / running Silicon Valley startups are living extremely cheaply (hence references to Ramen profitability), sharing places with groups of people, working long hours with very little time off, sometimes sleeping over in the office instead of going home.
I don't get the feeling that attitude happens within London, so working for a startup isn't much more different to a desk job in a big company - salary, set working hours, regular vacation time. Maybe a slightly better options/share stake in the company.
Also the business infrastructure of London doesn't facilitate a lean startup environment. Registering a company with Companies House is cheap enough, but running it is quite costly for a group of people who are trying to build something that might pan out later. It's like London only wants organisations with existing revenue streams, not startups with potential.
And there's the expectation of potential employees for London startups, they want the benefits of working for an established business. Silicon Valleyers seem more inclined to be involved with something interesting, and live a minimalist life outside of that role.
Am I completely wrong here? (Would be interested in hearing back from people working in startups in Silicon Valley and London, but also elsewhere in the world - how is your organisation legally registered, do you pay salaries or offer compensation in stock ownership, are you living comfortably, or living off ramen noodles until you've created a decent income stream?)
I think this gets to the heart of the cultural difference between the UK and California in terms of startups. I get the feeling that people working for / running Silicon Valley startups are living extremely cheaply (hence references to Ramen profitability), sharing places with groups of people, working long hours with very little time off, sometimes sleeping over in the office instead of going home.
I don't get the feeling that attitude happens within London, so working for a startup isn't much more different to a desk job in a big company - salary, set working hours, regular vacation time. Maybe a slightly better options/share stake in the company.
Also the business infrastructure of London doesn't facilitate a lean startup environment. Registering a company with Companies House is cheap enough, but running it is quite costly for a group of people who are trying to build something that might pan out later. It's like London only wants organisations with existing revenue streams, not startups with potential.
And there's the expectation of potential employees for London startups, they want the benefits of working for an established business. Silicon Valleyers seem more inclined to be involved with something interesting, and live a minimalist life outside of that role.
Am I completely wrong here? (Would be interested in hearing back from people working in startups in Silicon Valley and London, but also elsewhere in the world - how is your organisation legally registered, do you pay salaries or offer compensation in stock ownership, are you living comfortably, or living off ramen noodles until you've created a decent income stream?)
>so working for a startup isn't much more different to a desk job in a big company
Why would invest so much of your life and earning potential at a start up? Because of that negligible chance that you'll be the next Facebook? You'd be better off working in a desk job and just using your extra money to buy lottery tickets.
In my opinion the attitude you attribute to London is the wiser one.
Why would invest so much of your life and earning potential at a start up? Because of that negligible chance that you'll be the next Facebook? You'd be better off working in a desk job and just using your extra money to buy lottery tickets.
In my opinion the attitude you attribute to London is the wiser one.
I agree with you. The density of London makes it an awesome tourist attraction. But living there? No, thank you.
I think what would help you getting remote working jobs are
1. knowing people down there, that know you're good/professional/trustable/likable/[insert social-binding characeristic] enough
2. raising the number of people from pragraph 1 by networking or getting down there for like 3 months and do some work.
In my experience its all about knowing people who have worked with you and know that you can deliver. they will hire/recommend you or let you know if they hear anything about new jobs, fitting for you.
If you are working in the same industry, those people will still be in the same industry in years. And if not, you propably won't get any jobs either by then. Plus, people swith employees over the time, so your 'eyes and ears in the field' increase.
I think what would help you getting remote working jobs are
1. knowing people down there, that know you're good/professional/trustable/likable/[insert social-binding characeristic] enough
2. raising the number of people from pragraph 1 by networking or getting down there for like 3 months and do some work.
In my experience its all about knowing people who have worked with you and know that you can deliver. they will hire/recommend you or let you know if they hear anything about new jobs, fitting for you.
If you are working in the same industry, those people will still be in the same industry in years. And if not, you propably won't get any jobs either by then. Plus, people swith employees over the time, so your 'eyes and ears in the field' increase.
There's plenty of affordable housing a stones throw away from London on the train if you're prepared to commute.
I did it for a couple of years (1 hour each way).
I did it for a couple of years (1 hour each way).
1 hour = a stone's throw? Anyway, I highly doubt there are any places cheap enough to make commuting cheaper than living in London (not in West Sussex or Surrey anyway.)
Where did you live? Even with the costs of commuting was it cheaper than living in London?
Where did you live? Even with the costs of commuting was it cheaper than living in London?
east of england (Colchester), and yes, it was/is way cheaper even with train ticket.
I've been planning to move from Spain to London for some months. You're scaring me. Is £40.000 not enough for a decent flat and once a month flight back home?
Assume about 1000 GBP/month if you want somewhere half-decent to live. If you want accommodation to be 30% of your before-tax salary, then you need to make 40K per year.
If you're willing to compromise - live in a room in a shared house, almost like a student, or somewhere dodgy (e.g. tower block with lifts that smell like piss) or with poor transport links, you'll be able to reduce that by 50% or more.
Between myself and my GF, we make about 90K GBP, and we're fairly comfortable. But we live in Bow in the East End, don't have kids, and barely feel middle class.
If you're willing to compromise - live in a room in a shared house, almost like a student, or somewhere dodgy (e.g. tower block with lifts that smell like piss) or with poor transport links, you'll be able to reduce that by 50% or more.
Between myself and my GF, we make about 90K GBP, and we're fairly comfortable. But we live in Bow in the East End, don't have kids, and barely feel middle class.
You say that as if living in a shared house was some sort of social stigma.
Most single young (under say 35) professionals in London share flats, and I'm including lawyers, investment bankers, doctors, etc.
One reason is that price drops disproportionately with the number of rooms, for example for a 1-bed flat you might pay £200/week but for a similar 2-bed you'd pay only £240/week. You could pay 1000/month for a "half-decent" 1-bed flat, or alternatively you could share a great 2-bed flat for the same price. And many people chose to make the second decision. Also it makes much more sense in terms of buying household products and makes "luxuries" such as hiring a cleaner much more affordable.
If you really want to live on your own it makes more sense to live in one of london commuter belt suburbs where you can get a flat for 600/month.
Most single young (under say 35) professionals in London share flats, and I'm including lawyers, investment bankers, doctors, etc.
One reason is that price drops disproportionately with the number of rooms, for example for a 1-bed flat you might pay £200/week but for a similar 2-bed you'd pay only £240/week. You could pay 1000/month for a "half-decent" 1-bed flat, or alternatively you could share a great 2-bed flat for the same price. And many people chose to make the second decision. Also it makes much more sense in terms of buying household products and makes "luxuries" such as hiring a cleaner much more affordable.
If you really want to live on your own it makes more sense to live in one of london commuter belt suburbs where you can get a flat for 600/month.
Living in a shared house (assuming no relationship with co-sharers) is a massive PITA, especially if you're as misanthropic as me. Sharing bathrooms, kitchen cleaning protocols, awkwardness / potential conflicts having guests stay over, ugh; it sucks. It's like living at home with your parents; better in some ways, worse in others, but a huge step below having one's own place.
But if you have a significant other, then I agree, sharing is a whole heap better.
We live in a 3-bedroom, two-story house with a back garden that runs down to the canal, and a view directly onto Victoria Park past the canal. It's about 25 minutes from almost anywhere in central London by scooter (to my mind, the best way to get around London). The house runs to only slightly more than 1000/month.
But if you have a significant other, then I agree, sharing is a whole heap better.
We live in a 3-bedroom, two-story house with a back garden that runs down to the canal, and a view directly onto Victoria Park past the canal. It's about 25 minutes from almost anywhere in central London by scooter (to my mind, the best way to get around London). The house runs to only slightly more than 1000/month.
It massively depends on who you're living with. There is a big difference between living with a bunch of people you just met on gumtree and living with your closest friends you've known for years.
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That really depends on your personality type. I don't mind sharing at all - I've been doing it frequently for a number of years now (I'm 32).
Thank you and of course also to the rest of people that answered. It seems I'll be sensibly better than now. Madrid accommodation is shockingly expensive (~900€ a decent flat half an hour from the centre, I live now much farther), considering the much lower salaries... I can't find anything above €30k right now, with 15 years experience!
A funny thing is that yesterday I was thinking of emailing (or should I say spamming) you to ask for advice. I have your address from some conversation we had long time ago over bpd.non-tech, and I don't know anybody in UK.
A funny thing is that yesterday I was thinking of emailing (or should I say spamming) you to ask for advice. I have your address from some conversation we had long time ago over bpd.non-tech, and I don't know anybody in UK.
Email away, but given that I work for Embarcadero from home, and my coworkers are located in California, I don't have much advice specific to the software industry locally; just generalities about London from the perspective of an Irishman, and thus the culture, frankly, is not terribly foreign.
I was living in Stoke Newington 3 years ago with a couple, paying £585/mo for a first-story rowhouse flat with a backyard garden and a piano and an open invite to the older gentleman's main home in Seville, and was 2 blocks off of the A10, right on multiple rail lines to Central London. It's all in where you look.
LOL. 40k ~= 29k / year after taxes? That's 2400 / month (I'm not sure what health care coverage you get for that, it's been 10 years since I lived in the UK, but let's assume it is fully covered). A 1 bedroom is what nowadays, 1600 / month if you're not picky? Add public transport fees (100 euro / month?), above-average cost of food (depending on where you go and what you eat, obviously - 250 euro a month for 1 person if you're a bit careful should be doable); utility bills (gas, water, electricity; let's say you're not home much and it all adds up to 150 / month; that leaves 300 for clothes, cell phone, insurances, furnishing your apartment, social life if you want to have one, various local taxes, ... Luckily Ryanair flies for cheap, but the Stansted Express is already another 25 euros ;)
Obviously there are many people living off much less, but don't expect the same standard of living you could buy elsewhere with that money...
Obviously there are many people living off much less, but don't expect the same standard of living you could buy elsewhere with that money...
You can get a perfectly decent furnished flat in a normal inner-suburb area of London on little more than half the suggested £1600, and if you plan your flights in advance the cost on a low cost carrier is negligible. £40k per annum isn't going to offer you the same kind of luxury in London you might get in other cities, but it's a perfectly adequate salary to enjoy the city on.
OK I guess it depends on how you define 'live in London', I guess. I used to live in Staines, but I hardly believe that moving to Staines represents the ambition of people saying the want to move to London because that's where the action happens. I admit I don't know that much about actual rental prices right now, but a cursory web search shows to me that my 1600 pounds is closer to the average for a 1-bedroom apartment than 800 pounds. 700 pounds is what an average apartment (nothing fancy) costs in my rural hometown in Belgium.
Sorry, I switched currencies somewhere halfway in my post, I don't quite remember where - but either way, either your net pay will go down or costs go up so the actual situation is worse than what I describe.
40K is around 2450 per month after tax.
If you don't want to share a flat and don't want to spend more than 40 minutes commuting per trip allow around 1000 for a single bedroom flat in zone 2 or 3. Council tax is around 100/150 per month. Water/gas/electricity/internet should be between 150 and 200 per month. Monthly pass for zones 1 to 3 is 120 a month. So fixed costs are around 1500 a month. This leaves you 950 per month for food, clothes, gadgets going out, travelling and for saving some money. Healthcare is free for now.
watching The Social Network, i saw some wordless hackers that were happy to work for early facebook when they only had $1000 in bank to pay for servers.
is it something different in American climate?.. :)
is it something different in American climate?.. :)
If I'm going to work for nothing, I'll work for myself, or as a fully-vested partner.
If I'm going to work for a salary, I'll work for at least the going market rate for my skills. I don't care if you're Joe McStartup or IBM. It's your dream, not mine.
If I'm going to work for a salary, I'll work for at least the going market rate for my skills. I don't care if you're Joe McStartup or IBM. It's your dream, not mine.
"work for" != "full time salaried employee"
i meant that - is that true that in America there are more risky, romantic hackers that would be happy to work for a promising startup for nothing, than in Europe, where too much people want to be full time employees?
without any critics, just wondering.
without any critics, just wondering.
I suspect most Americans have annoying personal requirements like bills and mortgages to pay same as Europeans.
College students don't have these overheads, but they don't have experience either - so coding for next to nothing is a good exchange for experience and resume padding.
However, if you're an experienced developer and you work for nothing without a huge chunk of equity or ownership in the business then you're a fool. Look up some of the job offers on Craigslist - you'll be very much in demand.
College students don't have these overheads, but they don't have experience either - so coding for next to nothing is a good exchange for experience and resume padding.
However, if you're an experienced developer and you work for nothing without a huge chunk of equity or ownership in the business then you're a fool. Look up some of the job offers on Craigslist - you'll be very much in demand.
is it something different in American climate?.. :)
one can live in a cardboard box in California but not in Scotland?
one can live in a cardboard box in California but not in Scotland?
Scotland would probably be one of the worst places to try living in a cardboard box - cold enough to be dangerous if you are outdoors but not cold enough to be dry. Combine that with rather unpredictable weather and rapid temperature changes (we've had temperatures changing 20C in a few days recently) and you would have a pretty miserable time in a cardboard box.
Unfortunately there are a lot of kids living on the street in scotland. It really surprised me the first time I went to Edinburgh, how many young people there were sitting in doorways. A lot of them didn't look like they'd been there long either.
There is no doubt there are "real" homeless people in Edinburgh (probably poor souls who've been thrown out of long term care) - but a lot (not all) of the younger people you see in Edinburgh are doing it because a) there are plenty tourists who will hand over some cash b) people who have traveled in from outlying towns/villages, spent all of their cash on booze and don't have enough to get home.
[NB I've helped a few people in the latter category get home, so I know it happens]
[NB I've helped a few people in the latter category get home, so I know it happens]
heyhey zeemonkee, drop me a line if you're interested in talking about remote working. g
How much do they want to be paid? About £40k starting, please.
Best of luck to them. I know few (non-contractors) who pull in even 90% of that with substantial experience.
Idle wandering of mind a while back, I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to do a startup I'd base it in Northampton. Relatively cheap area by UK standards but livable, hour by train to both central London and Birmingham/West Midlands (about half the size of London so a substantial catchment area in its own right), good N/S and E/W road transport links and if I advertised for experienced devs at USD50k (equivalent) I'd be beating them away with a stick. I don't have any plans in that direction mind you, but it's that sort of thing that makes me wonder why anyone bothers setting up in London.
Best of luck to them. I know few (non-contractors) who pull in even 90% of that with substantial experience.
Idle wandering of mind a while back, I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to do a startup I'd base it in Northampton. Relatively cheap area by UK standards but livable, hour by train to both central London and Birmingham/West Midlands (about half the size of London so a substantial catchment area in its own right), good N/S and E/W road transport links and if I advertised for experienced devs at USD50k (equivalent) I'd be beating them away with a stick. I don't have any plans in that direction mind you, but it's that sort of thing that makes me wonder why anyone bothers setting up in London.
I am in Northampton for the transport links you mention, the reason to setup in London is however simple the majority of good people in Northampton are commuting to London. As you say its about 50-70% of the cost of living in London but still accessible
A good part of that though is circular; it's where the 'good' jobs are so people go there for the jobs so the companies set up there because that's where the 'good' people are and... I've worked in enough much smaller towns that could still draw good staff from the surrounding area. Note 'good', I'm not convinced it's more than perception.
The distances I've known people commute over the years horrify me; I know I would take a lower-paying job if it in return saved me something of the 90 minutes per day or or 8-9000 miles a year I've had to drive. From the staff I've known commuting between towns over the years, I find it hard to believe that a company offering good work and reasonable pay in a large town couldn't draw the staff and within a reasonable commuting radius of Northampton as the town in question you've easily got a 1m population, maybe more, let alone the 200k or so as the immediate local work force, keen to cut down the commute.
EDIT: I should add part of the company location suggestion is ease of reach for clients / partners, rather than staff lifestyle. Give yourself a hypothetical 10AM meeting and look at the percentage of UK business you can reach without an obnoxiously early start. London and West Midlands obviously, Thames Valley, pretty much the whole home counties, much of East Anglia, Oxfordshire, Leicester / Derby / Nottingham area, even up as far as Sheffield or Stoke.... Get yourself on the morning flights out of Luton and you've got Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dublin, Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels too at little more cost. A very powerful reach and in a cheap, densely populated area.
The distances I've known people commute over the years horrify me; I know I would take a lower-paying job if it in return saved me something of the 90 minutes per day or or 8-9000 miles a year I've had to drive. From the staff I've known commuting between towns over the years, I find it hard to believe that a company offering good work and reasonable pay in a large town couldn't draw the staff and within a reasonable commuting radius of Northampton as the town in question you've easily got a 1m population, maybe more, let alone the 200k or so as the immediate local work force, keen to cut down the commute.
EDIT: I should add part of the company location suggestion is ease of reach for clients / partners, rather than staff lifestyle. Give yourself a hypothetical 10AM meeting and look at the percentage of UK business you can reach without an obnoxiously early start. London and West Midlands obviously, Thames Valley, pretty much the whole home counties, much of East Anglia, Oxfordshire, Leicester / Derby / Nottingham area, even up as far as Sheffield or Stoke.... Get yourself on the morning flights out of Luton and you've got Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dublin, Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels too at little more cost. A very powerful reach and in a cheap, densely populated area.
From personal experience, talent is to be found outside of London. But it's difficult to get them to move to London, they just don't think it's worth a hassle.
There is a reason why so many successfull UK hardware companies are based in Hampshire, Oxford or Cambridge.
And London VCs are still far more risk-averse than SV VCs.
This is the real problem. Most US startups pay considerably more than 40k GBP = $63k USD. $63k USD would be considered laughably low for anyone besides perhaps a middle-of-the-pack recent graduate.
So it seems that startups need to either generate revenue quickly move to where the money is (NY and SV, apparently).
This is the real problem. Most US startups pay considerably more than 40k GBP = $63k USD. $63k USD would be considered laughably low for anyone besides perhaps a middle-of-the-pack recent graduate.
So it seems that startups need to either generate revenue quickly move to where the money is (NY and SV, apparently).
Or consider alternate compensation, such as alternating remote work. London is a cheap hour flight away from most countries in Europe. Most big companies in London simply don't allow, say, a week remote and a week on-site. Be flexible and you might find a much bigger talent pool.
But 63,000 USD is far above the US media income (44,000 USD).
Granted, I made that just out of college as well but I was living a whirlwind life of monthly travel, and daily partying. For a single person 63,000USD is a lot of money---money enough that when I cut back on partying I could easily consider taking on a mortgage for a house with my discretionary income.
Granted, I made that just out of college as well but I was living a whirlwind life of monthly travel, and daily partying. For a single person 63,000USD is a lot of money---money enough that when I cut back on partying I could easily consider taking on a mortgage for a house with my discretionary income.
Then hire from remote locations all over Europe.
Give me your email if you want my LinkedIn profile; all I want is £30k :-)
Give me your email if you want my LinkedIn profile; all I want is £30k :-)
Out of curiosity, what do you consider the other startup hubs in Europe? Guessing from your comment that this is the UK scene, there should be others.
Berlin has a very active, vibrant startup scene.
It's also a much nicer place than london. And they managed not to make the mistake of having an entirely speculative property market like the UK has.
I'm curious about the salary ranges comparing to london's. Do you know anything about that?
There is a lot going on in Copenhagen, Denmark is also often ranked as the best country to start a business as the costs of starting one are low (living there is not) see http://www.prosperity.com/entrepreneurship.aspx.
In my country, Holland, many people mention Amsterdam, I don't agree with that in the sense that it is a hub. The up and coming region here is Utrecht, it has a province and university backed business incubator Utrecht Inc. and a government backed gaming incubator, which both enabled some startups with national or global impact. The startup scene is still behind that of other countries and the numbers of 'me too', 'Y for X', 'X for social media' or 'X which doesn't suck' ideas are huge.
In my country, Holland, many people mention Amsterdam, I don't agree with that in the sense that it is a hub. The up and coming region here is Utrecht, it has a province and university backed business incubator Utrecht Inc. and a government backed gaming incubator, which both enabled some startups with national or global impact. The startup scene is still behind that of other countries and the numbers of 'me too', 'Y for X', 'X for social media' or 'X which doesn't suck' ideas are huge.
>There is a lot going on in Copenhagen, Denmark is also often ranked as the best country to start a business as the costs of starting one are low (living there is not)
The fact that living here is not means that while it may be cheap to start a company, you have to pay some very, very high salaries to attract people in the first place if they wish to maintain a decent standard of living. You also have to consider that while CPH is a great city with a ton going on for its size, it is never going to be a huge multi-cultural mecca like London or SF have become. Denmark is simply too insular and opposed to much immigration, and that is a culture that's not going to change anytime soon.
The fact that living here is not means that while it may be cheap to start a company, you have to pay some very, very high salaries to attract people in the first place if they wish to maintain a decent standard of living. You also have to consider that while CPH is a great city with a ton going on for its size, it is never going to be a huge multi-cultural mecca like London or SF have become. Denmark is simply too insular and opposed to much immigration, and that is a culture that's not going to change anytime soon.
That was my comment. I'm not stating that there are other "hubs".
Europe still doesn't have a central hub, which btw I think would be a great thing, but I'm not sure London can take that role. UK is surely not the California of Europe, and I sincerely fail in finding another candidate.
At Garage48.org, we look at the Baltic-Nordic region as one strongly tied together scene, as the countries and cities themselves are all tiny. During the last year, the change towards a more vibrant startup scene has been visible in all the region's capital cities, no need to single out any of them.
I live in Silicon Valley but organize an incubator in Paris (with other branches in other European cities). I argue these issues daily with our founders.
To hire someone in Silicon Valley, plan on spending a minimum of $80K. A senior engineer will cost you $130K easy. So I don't understand why salaries would be a barrier to hiring in Europe, people work for cheap there.
One of the barriers I see is the lack of super-angels. I don't want money from dentists and doctors, I want to raise money from entrepreneurs who know what it's like to start a company. The problem is that in France (and Europe in general), even the successful entrepreneurs tend to hide, because it's not polite to talk about being successful/rich.
In Silicon Valley, there is an endless stream of entrepreneurs with serious cash who are interested in hearing your story.
To hire someone in Silicon Valley, plan on spending a minimum of $80K. A senior engineer will cost you $130K easy. So I don't understand why salaries would be a barrier to hiring in Europe, people work for cheap there.
One of the barriers I see is the lack of super-angels. I don't want money from dentists and doctors, I want to raise money from entrepreneurs who know what it's like to start a company. The problem is that in France (and Europe in general), even the successful entrepreneurs tend to hide, because it's not polite to talk about being successful/rich.
In Silicon Valley, there is an endless stream of entrepreneurs with serious cash who are interested in hearing your story.
Are you saying there is more lack of talent in UK than in Silicon Valley?
In my opinion one thing that is very different from the US compared to Europe is that labour laws here are pretty favorable to employees. This has the downside (from a start-ups perspective) of having a workforce that is mostly happy.
Happy people are in a strong position to negotiate and will also not easily go and leave their happy well paying jobs in order to be 'repeatedly punched in the face' (that's not mine).
So besides the obvious advantages that an ecosystem like Silicon Valley offers you can bet that if you see a European start-up that the people behind it are extremely well motivated and probably have some funding. As opposed to the 'throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks' strategy employed in Silicon Valley. Typically European start-ups have a higher rate of success than their American counterparts but the magnitude of the individual successes is lower.
This is all from my limited perspective so apply salt liberally.
Happy people are in a strong position to negotiate and will also not easily go and leave their happy well paying jobs in order to be 'repeatedly punched in the face' (that's not mine).
So besides the obvious advantages that an ecosystem like Silicon Valley offers you can bet that if you see a European start-up that the people behind it are extremely well motivated and probably have some funding. As opposed to the 'throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks' strategy employed in Silicon Valley. Typically European start-ups have a higher rate of success than their American counterparts but the magnitude of the individual successes is lower.
This is all from my limited perspective so apply salt liberally.
Go to Portugal.
Great weather with amazing beaches and country side, low cost of living and lot's of engineers that can speak fluent English. Also the government has subsidies for tech companies, specially in the IT sector.
Spain is ok as well, but I find that people there have a hard time with English and like to party a bit too much.
And the comments about London are true. It is very expensive to live here and the quality of life is appalling. Many people who start out in sexy industries ( games, web, etc... ) gravitate to finance because they can't afford to live an adult life here on the wages of those industries.
Come and join us. Read our post about opening our R&D office in Portugal. http://blog.webnographer.com/2010/10/an-rd-office-in-lisbon/
Portugal salaries maybe lower but if you have not lived in Portugal for 10 years you can apply for non-habitual status which means you pay a flat rate of tax of just 20%!
Also you have the sun!
Portugal salaries maybe lower but if you have not lived in Portugal for 10 years you can apply for non-habitual status which means you pay a flat rate of tax of just 20%!
Also you have the sun!
I left Lisbon around 7 years ago and moved to Barcelona for games programming gig. Moved to London 3 years ago and life has become less flexible so moving back to Lisbon is just a wish for now. But I do think about it a lot. The quality of life is just great. Miss the Ocean. I know some great people there if you need some references.
As you have lived out of Portugal for more than 5 years you would probably qualify for the non habitual tax status, which means you would only pay 20% income tax if you moved back here. You would definitely get a standard of living boost.
http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/tax-law-tax-treaties-agreem...
The more contacts I have the better so yes please get in touch.
http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/tax-law-tax-treaties-agreem...
The more contacts I have the better so yes please get in touch.
Actually I've worked both in Portugal and Spain, and I find the latter better than the former in many aspects. Never had a problem with English and Spaniards never struck me as party animals, at least no more than elsewhere.
Here in Ireland we're constantly hearing about "the knowledge economy" but I think it has yet to materialise. Ever since Intel set up shop here we've managed to attract the biggest movers in technology to set up their European HQ.
So much so in fact that the bigger European countries constantly bitch about us, citing our 12.5% corporation tax rate to mask their own failure in attracting these investments. The real reason probably has to do with the fact our spoken English is the best in the world and years of "free" fees for college places have resulted in a hugely educated population.
Producing indigenous firms which don't serve niche markets is still beyond us. This is probably due to a conservative funding community with the "spend way more than you need, we'll refund it after" model, as well as university students majoring in "safe" subjects like arts, languages or business rather than mathematics and computer science.
Even for those students majoring in compsci, they gear you towards getting a job, not starting your own company.
So much so in fact that the bigger European countries constantly bitch about us, citing our 12.5% corporation tax rate to mask their own failure in attracting these investments. The real reason probably has to do with the fact our spoken English is the best in the world and years of "free" fees for college places have resulted in a hugely educated population.
Producing indigenous firms which don't serve niche markets is still beyond us. This is probably due to a conservative funding community with the "spend way more than you need, we'll refund it after" model, as well as university students majoring in "safe" subjects like arts, languages or business rather than mathematics and computer science.
Even for those students majoring in compsci, they gear you towards getting a job, not starting your own company.
I dunno.. I think our corporate tax does have a lot, if not close to everything, to do with companies basing their European headquarters here (eg, see Double Irish/Dutch Sandwich [1]). Our spoken English isn't as amazing as you make it out to be (its certainly not bad, but best in the world?? besides, have you ever been to Cork ;-) or certain parts of Dublin for that matter...) and while the "free" fees certainly helped our education, I still feel our education is inferior to a lot of the rest of the world. For example, computer science-related courses are still not attracting as many students as it should, even though, here in Ireland, IT jobs are much more plentiful than others [2].
Of course, regardless of how great we think we are as a startup hub, I've seen very little focus on startups here. Besides the occasional startup weekend, nubie.ie and Enterprise Ireland (which, IMHO, isn't very useful to a lot of - if not most - Internet tech startups), I see absolutely nothing here that shows any kind of innovation or advancements in the way of startups. Which is a pity, because I think that would be a great start to improving the economic situation.
university students majoring in "safe" subjects like arts, languages or business rather than mathematics and computer science
Funnily (or sadly) enough, I think the "safe" subjects are the ones that are really feeling the full force of the economic problems, while jobs in sciences, from where I stand anyway, are reasonably plentiful (well, compsci anyway, I haven't paid much attention to others since they're not relevant to me personally).
Even for those students majoring in compsci, they gear you towards getting a job, not starting your own company.
Agreed. This is definitely the case here. I think its holding back our potential, but I don't know what could be done about it really.
[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-sho...
[2] for example, http://irishdev.com/Home/News/1403-The-State-of-Play--IT-Gra... though from personal experience I know this to be true for all kinds of computer/programming related jobs
Of course, regardless of how great we think we are as a startup hub, I've seen very little focus on startups here. Besides the occasional startup weekend, nubie.ie and Enterprise Ireland (which, IMHO, isn't very useful to a lot of - if not most - Internet tech startups), I see absolutely nothing here that shows any kind of innovation or advancements in the way of startups. Which is a pity, because I think that would be a great start to improving the economic situation.
university students majoring in "safe" subjects like arts, languages or business rather than mathematics and computer science
Funnily (or sadly) enough, I think the "safe" subjects are the ones that are really feeling the full force of the economic problems, while jobs in sciences, from where I stand anyway, are reasonably plentiful (well, compsci anyway, I haven't paid much attention to others since they're not relevant to me personally).
Even for those students majoring in compsci, they gear you towards getting a job, not starting your own company.
Agreed. This is definitely the case here. I think its holding back our potential, but I don't know what could be done about it really.
[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-sho...
[2] for example, http://irishdev.com/Home/News/1403-The-State-of-Play--IT-Gra... though from personal experience I know this to be true for all kinds of computer/programming related jobs
> our spoken English is the best in the world
better than in England? :)
better than in England? :)
Yep. If you go to some parts of South Dublin, Kildare, Cork, Galway (where the technology hubs in ireland are, incidentally) the accents are very neutral and easy to understand. Several European news stations with a spoken english bulletin use Irish presenters for this reason.
> Producing indigenous firms which don't serve niche markets is still beyond us.
I'm not sure about that, I've been in Havok (http://www.havok.com/) for several years now, very successful Irish startup in the Games/Entertainment space (hardly a niche), acquired by Intel three years ago ($100m+). Granted there's room to improve in terms of the number of indigenous startups, but there are success stories out there.
I'm not sure about that, I've been in Havok (http://www.havok.com/) for several years now, very successful Irish startup in the Games/Entertainment space (hardly a niche), acquired by Intel three years ago ($100m+). Granted there's room to improve in terms of the number of indigenous startups, but there are success stories out there.
In my opinion, Havok is an outlier success story though. Sure, there are a few other Irish startups that achieved phenomenal global success, but they are relatively few and far between when compared to the more startup-focused places like SV.
True, I was mostly responding to the notion that:
> Producing indigenous firms which don't serve niche markets is still beyond us
It certainly isn't "beyond us", but as you say it's not happening as much as one would hope.
> Producing indigenous firms which don't serve niche markets is still beyond us
It certainly isn't "beyond us", but as you say it's not happening as much as one would hope.
Ah, I agree. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant the first time around.
What about Stockbyte? Sold for $136m in 2006.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0406/stockbyte-business.html?rss
Also, Jerry Kennelly (who sold Stockbyte), is running a seed capital program somewhat similar to YC, called the Endeavour program: http://www.endeavour.biz/ application date was yesterday. I posted a comment here the other day that we need to stop this Irish attitude of moaning about everything, and start doing stuff.
Another funding program:
http://www.ndrc.ie/
From what I've heard also, the banks are being forced to provide funding to startups, but that there isn't enough demand as of yet.
Check http://siliconrepublic.com/start-ups/ regularly to see what's going on in Ireland in relation to startups.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0406/stockbyte-business.html?rss
Also, Jerry Kennelly (who sold Stockbyte), is running a seed capital program somewhat similar to YC, called the Endeavour program: http://www.endeavour.biz/ application date was yesterday. I posted a comment here the other day that we need to stop this Irish attitude of moaning about everything, and start doing stuff.
Another funding program:
http://www.ndrc.ie/
From what I've heard also, the banks are being forced to provide funding to startups, but that there isn't enough demand as of yet.
Check http://siliconrepublic.com/start-ups/ regularly to see what's going on in Ireland in relation to startups.
Regarding Stockbyte, I never said there wasn't any other successful Irish startups besides Havok, just that they are few. We can hope that this is improving though.
Thanks for the links, though. Very useful. Hopefully the two funding programs are better than EI and the other ones I've seen in the past. I definitely see the startup situation improving here, its just happening very slowly and I think a greater focus on startups would be good for our economy (though I don't know what more can be done to help that along).
Thanks for the links, though. Very useful. Hopefully the two funding programs are better than EI and the other ones I've seen in the past. I definitely see the startup situation improving here, its just happening very slowly and I think a greater focus on startups would be good for our economy (though I don't know what more can be done to help that along).
"....though I don't know what more can be done to help that along"
Both my parents are secondary level teachers, yet I hold the controversial opinion that we should put a huge emphasis on teaching the basics of computing and programming to children at the primary school level. I remember doing some light programming in BASIC on a toy VTech "computer" when I was about ten, but I would have progressed far quicker and learned "skillz to pay teh bills" if there was someone who could've opened my eyes to the possibilities of programming at a younger age.
Both my parents are secondary level teachers, yet I hold the controversial opinion that we should put a huge emphasis on teaching the basics of computing and programming to children at the primary school level. I remember doing some light programming in BASIC on a toy VTech "computer" when I was about ten, but I would have progressed far quicker and learned "skillz to pay teh bills" if there was someone who could've opened my eyes to the possibilities of programming at a younger age.
I agree, that would be a very beneficial thing for science and compsci in general, not just startups.
Actually, I was EXTREMELY disappointed with our second level computer education (in relation to computers). Out of my class, only one other person went on to study something computer related (and not a computer science degree). The school made little effort in trying to promote such things and instead focused on the usual (mechanical) engineering and business type things that are (or were when I was in school, anyway) so popular. Yet those are industries (as far as I see, anyway) badly affected by the recession. Schools, in my experience - I'm sure some are better than others in this respect, put much too little emphasis on computer education, even though it has become such an integral part of most peoples lives and certainly of business. I think some solid computing and programming education for primary level children would be a great advancement for our country, but honestly, second level education is so lacking in that area that I think any additional computing-related education would be beneficial.
In fact, it should be a mandatory part of education for everyone. Even if most people are disinterested and do something else, the problem solving and analysis skills would serve them well whatever they do. It would also expose people to computers and programming who would otherwise have overlooked them. For example, all this hype about getting women into computing could, in my opinion, be tackled by introducing everybody, male and female, at an early age.
Actually, I was EXTREMELY disappointed with our second level computer education (in relation to computers). Out of my class, only one other person went on to study something computer related (and not a computer science degree). The school made little effort in trying to promote such things and instead focused on the usual (mechanical) engineering and business type things that are (or were when I was in school, anyway) so popular. Yet those are industries (as far as I see, anyway) badly affected by the recession. Schools, in my experience - I'm sure some are better than others in this respect, put much too little emphasis on computer education, even though it has become such an integral part of most peoples lives and certainly of business. I think some solid computing and programming education for primary level children would be a great advancement for our country, but honestly, second level education is so lacking in that area that I think any additional computing-related education would be beneficial.
In fact, it should be a mandatory part of education for everyone. Even if most people are disinterested and do something else, the problem solving and analysis skills would serve them well whatever they do. It would also expose people to computers and programming who would otherwise have overlooked them. For example, all this hype about getting women into computing could, in my opinion, be tackled by introducing everybody, male and female, at an early age.
I'm not suggesting that Ireland is devoid of successful startups, just they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. We have also had Baltimore, Iona etc but we should be producing way more.
Best in the world ? Try Inverness, Scotland.
The article highlight for me was "Silicon Valley has been around a lot longer than London and is more mature".
Possibly our very European sense of perspective is what's holding us back...
Possibly our very European sense of perspective is what's holding us back...
People earn far too much in Germany to be attracted by startup salaries. Still, once I finish my part-time masters, and my wife goes back to work too, I wouldn't mind getting into the scene. Got a few ideas, but would probably rather be a technical co-founder alongside an ideas/business guy.
Still, if anything is happening in Cologne in the mean time, give us a holler.
Still, if anything is happening in Cologne in the mean time, give us a holler.
He obviously has a vested interest in lauding his backers. If the European ecosystem is actually so great then why did it take the author three years to raise $1.3m?
I believe GroupSpaces raised an angel round in 2008 and only started looking for the VC round in 2010.
seedcamp invests about $80k, which is nowhere near enough to fund a London-based startup with 3+ people for more than two years. although the official story may very well be that they "only started looking" in 2010 this does not match up with this simple fact very well.
Occam's Razor therefore suggests to me that it actually took forever to raise a round (despite nominally ideal conditions, such as a well-connected founder with a CS degree from Oxford, trip to SV, liked by startup media, simple to understand product, etc).
Occam's Razor therefore suggests to me that it actually took forever to raise a round (despite nominally ideal conditions, such as a well-connected founder with a CS degree from Oxford, trip to SV, liked by startup media, simple to understand product, etc).
GroupSpaces wasn't funded by Seedcamp, are you thinking about another company ?
My real problem with the UK scene is the relative lack of talent available to startups. Where do talented graduates from the UK want to work? Banks, consultancies and accountancies. How much do they want to be paid? About £40k starting, please.
With the cost of living being so high in London, why wouldn't they?
Unless you can raise enough money to pay these people, your chances are far more limited. And London VCs are still far more risk-averse than SV VCs. To my mind that makes entrepreneurship in London a rich (and older) man's game compared with SV.
Of course there are counter-examples, but I think they've succeeded despite London. I'm sure this situation will improve (it has already been doing so), but in the meantime I plan to move to SV. I just think it will improve my odds.