Apple will not allow Verizon to preload software on iPhone(appleinsider.com)
appleinsider.com
Apple will not allow Verizon to preload software on iPhone
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/01/11/apple_will_not_allow_verizon_to_preload_software_on_iphone.html
69 comments
Agreed. The biggest issue I have with a V-powered iPhone is the inability to simultaneously engage in voice and data activities due to CDMA's limitations. That I also routinely average around 3 Mbit/sec on AT&T 3G and peak at 5-6 Mbit/sec gives me no desire to switch. Also like the fact that I can use the GSM iPhone internationally.
Also like the fact that I can use the GSM iPhone internationally.
The AT&T iPhone has been a disappointment for international travel. The international data plan is a terrible deal, and it seems to be impossible to carrier unlock without also jailbreaking. Jailbreak is not a great option if you're an app developer as the jailbreak ties the phone to a specific OS version, and you generally want the latest, or even a beta OS installed. If you want to use local SIMs, your only real option is to buy a phone factory unlocked from somewhere like Singapore. If you know of a way to carrier unlock without jailbreaking, let me know!
The AT&T iPhone has been a disappointment for international travel. The international data plan is a terrible deal, and it seems to be impossible to carrier unlock without also jailbreaking. Jailbreak is not a great option if you're an app developer as the jailbreak ties the phone to a specific OS version, and you generally want the latest, or even a beta OS installed. If you want to use local SIMs, your only real option is to buy a phone factory unlocked from somewhere like Singapore. If you know of a way to carrier unlock without jailbreaking, let me know!
Infographic of countries with factory-unlocked iPhones and their prices: http://www.cutviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/02081001....
Cheapest:
#1 Hong Kong
#2 Singapore
#3 Canada
#4 Switzerland
Looks like the all the iPhones have the same radios. So, if an unlocked iPhone doesn't work on 3G with your current carrier (i.e. T-Mobile in the US), then you won't be able to find an iPhone anywhere that does.
From the Apple site (I verified with the top 4 cheapest countries):
* 3G Support: UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz)
* 2G Support: GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
Cheapest:
#1 Hong Kong
#2 Singapore
#3 Canada
#4 Switzerland
Looks like the all the iPhones have the same radios. So, if an unlocked iPhone doesn't work on 3G with your current carrier (i.e. T-Mobile in the US), then you won't be able to find an iPhone anywhere that does.
From the Apple site (I verified with the top 4 cheapest countries):
* 3G Support: UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz)
* 2G Support: GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
Excuse me, I misspoke (mis-wrote?) ... I meant to write that I could -- theoretically -- use the iPhone internationally. In fact precisely because of the exorbitant costs, I have rarely ever done so, and any event, never for anything other than text messaging.
I just meant that at least, being a GSM phone, the capability is available. I didn't even realize Verizon had global phones -- how does that work? Are they dual band CDMA / GSM? -- so thank you for sharing this with me. Time to rescind that entire last clause of what I wrote it looks like. :)
Would edit that previous post but I guess after a certain time edits are not possible(?).
I just meant that at least, being a GSM phone, the capability is available. I didn't even realize Verizon had global phones -- how does that work? Are they dual band CDMA / GSM? -- so thank you for sharing this with me. Time to rescind that entire last clause of what I wrote it looks like. :)
Would edit that previous post but I guess after a certain time edits are not possible(?).
Yes, Verizon sells dual-band phones. I have a Blackberry from Verizon for work, and it's CDMA/GSM, with the GSM specifically for international roaming.
Buying an unlocked iPhone in Canada is probably easier.
I want to echo that the AT&T iPhone is hugely disappointing when traveling internationally due to the outrageous cost of AT&T's roaming plans. Data is prohibitively expensive. Think $1 per megabyte (not a typo, mega-byte). That's $200 for 200 MB or $2,000 for 2 GB. Voice calls are usually $1 per minute. You're pretty much stuck with a very pretty machine that sends $0.50 text messages.
Even if you get an unlocked phone, you will most likely only be able to get a voice+text SIM card when traveling. Especially in Europe, only full blown plans included any amount of data. And every damn country requires a new SIM. Absolutely painful and honestly not that valuable. You might just gain ever so slightly cheaper calls and texts to local phones, and absolutely nothing if you want to call back home.
Verizon Global phones, on the other hand, are amazing. AMAZING! You pay $80 per month for unlimited data. Yes, UNLIMITED international data. And Verizon will prorate your fees for only the days that you travel and also discount you the cost of your existing data plan during these days. Otherwise it is the same as AT&T, but this is a HUGE difference.
If you travel and want to use data then Verizon is the way to go. You just need a Global phone, and unfortunately the iPhone isn't one of them.
Even if you get an unlocked phone, you will most likely only be able to get a voice+text SIM card when traveling. Especially in Europe, only full blown plans included any amount of data. And every damn country requires a new SIM. Absolutely painful and honestly not that valuable. You might just gain ever so slightly cheaper calls and texts to local phones, and absolutely nothing if you want to call back home.
Verizon Global phones, on the other hand, are amazing. AMAZING! You pay $80 per month for unlimited data. Yes, UNLIMITED international data. And Verizon will prorate your fees for only the days that you travel and also discount you the cost of your existing data plan during these days. Otherwise it is the same as AT&T, but this is a HUGE difference.
If you travel and want to use data then Verizon is the way to go. You just need a Global phone, and unfortunately the iPhone isn't one of them.
> Even if you get an unlocked phone, you will most likely only be able to get a voice+text SIM card when traveling. Especially in Europe, only full blown plans included any amount of data.
This is totally untrue. I traveled to England last year with my Nexus One, bought a T-Mobile SIM card, and got unlimited data for a week for something absurd like £1 ($1.50) a day, after paying for the $20 SIM.
https://www.britishsims.com/T-Mobile_SIM.html
This is totally untrue. I traveled to England last year with my Nexus One, bought a T-Mobile SIM card, and got unlimited data for a week for something absurd like £1 ($1.50) a day, after paying for the $20 SIM.
https://www.britishsims.com/T-Mobile_SIM.html
Even if you get an unlocked phone, you will most likely only be able to get a voice+text SIM card when traveling.
I haven't seen great deals, but all of the carriers in Australia now offer some sort of prepaid mobile data.
I haven't seen great deals, but all of the carriers in Australia now offer some sort of prepaid mobile data.
I just traveled to The Netherlands on my hacked iPhone using T-Mobile, the text message I got was $15 a megabyte! 10 MB would cost me $150.
Phone calls are $1.29 a minute, and texts are $0.29 or $0.99 I haven't checked my bill yet.
Either way roaming is very expensive on T-Mobile. I am not sure why, T-Mobile owns the network I was on in The Netherlands as well!
Phone calls are $1.29 a minute, and texts are $0.29 or $0.99 I haven't checked my bill yet.
Either way roaming is very expensive on T-Mobile. I am not sure why, T-Mobile owns the network I was on in The Netherlands as well!
Any roaming plan is stealing tons of money from you. The way to go is to just buy a local SIM card wherever you travel. Many come with a data plan too. It ends up much cheaper then roaming your own number around.
The annoying thing is even the Nexus One comes with preinstalled apps that you cannot remove.
Specifically: Amazon MP3, Twitter, and Facebook.
Specifically: Amazon MP3, Twitter, and Facebook.
Twitter was pre-installed on Nexus One?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing it out of the Box.
As for as default Facebook installation and integration is a bad idea. I really hate that.
As for as default Facebook installation and integration is a bad idea. I really hate that.
I got mine just before Android 2.2 came out (I got the 2.2 OTA update right after pulling it out of the box) and it definitely did have Twitter.
Aah, it was 2.2 that added Twitter to the base OS:
http://support.twitter.com/groups/34-mobile/topics/125-troub...
http://support.twitter.com/groups/34-mobile/topics/125-troub...
[deleted]
I purchased a Nexus One shortly after launch, and it did not come with Twitter installed. In fact, the Twitter app didn't exist then.
I _did_ however do a hard reset the other day (ugh...) and all of my stuff was gone. Twitter, Amazon, and Angry Birds Holiday seemed to still be there...
But looking at my phone now, a bunch of other apps that I had downloaded are back, mysteriously. I dunno.
I _did_ however do a hard reset the other day (ugh...) and all of my stuff was gone. Twitter, Amazon, and Angry Birds Holiday seemed to still be there...
But looking at my phone now, a bunch of other apps that I had downloaded are back, mysteriously. I dunno.
It's a feature. No, really. When you sync your Google account, it redownloads your apps.
That's pretty awesome. I guess it happens in the background?
Call me back when I can remove Stocks or Notes or Weather from iOS.
At least I would use 2 of those 3.
At least I would use 2 of those 3.
Those are not carrier specific apps.
The reason why they are there because there were no installable apps at that time. I do not need to sign in to any services or accounts to use those apps.
Amazon MP3, Facebook apps are tied to some services that requires user accounts.
One pre-installed app on iOS that fit the category is YouTube App.
Amazon MP3, Facebook apps are tied to some services that requires user accounts.
One pre-installed app on iOS that fit the category is YouTube App.
The reason why they are there because there were no installable apps at that time.
So now that there are installable apps, they can be removed, right? No they can't.
So now that there are installable apps, they can be removed, right? No they can't.
They can't be removed because there is no way to get them back. (They are not available in the App Store.)
Yes, this could (and should) be fixed. And someday, perhaps, it will be. For now, it's just not a serious problem, outside of Hacker News.
Having three different IM clients on a phone pre-installed and unremovable? Yeah, that's the kind of shit Apple doesn't do.
Yes, this could (and should) be fixed. And someday, perhaps, it will be. For now, it's just not a serious problem, outside of Hacker News.
Having three different IM clients on a phone pre-installed and unremovable? Yeah, that's the kind of shit Apple doesn't do.
Having three different IM clients on a phone pre-installed and unremovable? Yeah, that's the kind of shit Apple doesn't do.
Because Apple wants you to use SMS instead of IM, making the carriers a boatload of money for no reason.
That is exactly the kind of shit Apple does.
Because Apple wants you to use SMS instead of IM, making the carriers a boatload of money for no reason.
That is exactly the kind of shit Apple does.
It's not Apple that wants you to use SMS - it's EVERYONE.
I bought my first mobile over twelve years ago because of SMS, not voice, as it replaced the pagers that me and my friends had.
I bought my first mobile over twelve years ago because of SMS, not voice, as it replaced the pagers that me and my friends had.
God no it's not.
Apple's SMS implementation/interface is terrible. Group Messaging is just broken.
Apple's SMS implementation/interface is terrible. Group Messaging is just broken.
Weather and Notes are pretty awesome.
I wouldn't use Amazon mp3 nor facebook, so, meh.
I wouldn't use Amazon mp3 nor facebook, so, meh.
Weather gives me way different results to the BOM: http://www.bom.gov.au So I don't trust it at all.
Notes is okay - but I prefer simplenote.
I also don't use the contacts app (you can get at contacts through the Phone icon) but I understand that people might want to use it.
Notes is okay - but I prefer simplenote.
I also don't use the contacts app (you can get at contacts through the Phone icon) but I understand that people might want to use it.
The Nexus S doesn't have those apps by default. It seems the only pre-installed apps I can't remove are from Google, like Google Voice.
You can remove them using Titanium Backup or something similar if you have root:
http://www.appbrain.com/app/titanium-backup-%E2%98%85-root/c...
http://www.appbrain.com/app/titanium-backup-%E2%98%85-root/c...
I don't own one, so I'm not sure -- but couldn't you just reflash it with the downloadable Android?
I understand the purpose of preinstalling the apps, but why make them so hard to remove? Do they think an informed user is going to spend all this time trying to remove crapware he obviously doesn't want to use and finally give up and say "Ah well, you win verizon. $25 worth of hip-hop ringtones please."
Do they think an informed user is going to spend all this time trying to remove crapware he obviously doesn't want to use and finally give up and say "Ah well, you win verizon. $25 worth of hip-hop ringtones please."
No I doubt an informed user would say that. But a non-technical user might. And they get money for that.
No I doubt an informed user would say that. But a non-technical user might. And they get money for that.
The reason they are usually hard to remove is because they are burnt to the ROM.
This, and the carriers want to have a relationship with you.
With all the creepiness, and clinginess, that implies. In their warped, MBA, boardroom bullshit philosophy, uninstallable apps are essential to that goal.
With all the creepiness, and clinginess, that implies. In their warped, MBA, boardroom bullshit philosophy, uninstallable apps are essential to that goal.
The apps are uninstallable because the carriers are getting paid for those apps to be there. If they let you uninstall they don't maximize their income.
The carriers have this fear of being relegated to the "dumb pipes" role. What the phone-bundled crapware shows is that they don't deserve any better. They're incapable of adding anything of virtue to the experience.
I wish, instead of horning into the user experience with bullshit, they'd spend their time embracing their core competency: network infrastructure deployment and maintenance. And really do it with gusto – be the best they possibly can be. This would breed loyalty. This would create enthusiasm in consumers for the carriers they pay.
But who am I kidding – it's much easier to license NASCAR and shove that trash into a feature phone.
I wish, instead of horning into the user experience with bullshit, they'd spend their time embracing their core competency: network infrastructure deployment and maintenance. And really do it with gusto – be the best they possibly can be. This would breed loyalty. This would create enthusiasm in consumers for the carriers they pay.
But who am I kidding – it's much easier to license NASCAR and shove that trash into a feature phone.
The carriers SHOULD BE dumb pipes, and judged by how how well they perform this task.
Would you stand for it if your water company tried to lock you into it's service by offering to make all your water "minty fresh"? I think not.
I guess this is my minimalist hatred of useless tangential/unrelated features talking.
Would you stand for it if your water company tried to lock you into it's service by offering to make all your water "minty fresh"? I think not.
I guess this is my minimalist hatred of useless tangential/unrelated features talking.
Offering? I think the comparison would have to be they just make all of the water taste like "mint" and talk about how great it is (though it sucks for cooking.)
Microsoft, at their retail store(s), enforces the same policy on computers. When you get a computer from there, you get stock Windows 7. (And drivers, I would hope, although 7 seems better about bundling more recent drivers--even Broadcom wireless and Intel graphics!)
I'm really happy Apple is doing that. I honestly believe that Verizon is the sole reason that America is like 50 years behind in mobile technology. The carrier dominates the market in cell phone service because it gives most of the technology illiterate generation X a a better deal with the monthly plans, but at the same time it gives all of its users crappy cellphones with crappy software. Honestly anything Verizon touches becomes intellectually dull. When's the last time you heard Vcast or Verizon store on TechCrunch? So I am really happy that Apple knows that although Verizon is a good mobile carrier, the company has not innovation at all, and Apple refuse to allow Verizon to touch their gadget.
True to a point, but it sounds like they have touched it. No data during a phone call? Will Verizon users be able to use this thing anywhere else? Are Ebay buyers going to have to keep an eye out to make sure it's not a crippled Verizon version?
While I'm happy to hear this, I don't find it surprising.
Despite having a different chipset and radio, the Verizon iPhone is still just another iPhone and Verizon still just one of several dozen carrier partners around the world. If they didn't allow any other carriers to preload software, why would they let Verizon?
Despite having a different chipset and radio, the Verizon iPhone is still just another iPhone and Verizon still just one of several dozen carrier partners around the world. If they didn't allow any other carriers to preload software, why would they let Verizon?
One of the best examples of Apple draconian measures benefiting us users.
I don't think there are many (if any) "draconian measures" from Apple that don't actually benefit users. Nearly all complaints about Apple's behavior can be split into two groups: Idealogical (e.g. "Everything must be free! Even if that means there are 1,000 app stores to choose from, everyone one of them consisting of almost exclusively malware and viruses, it all has to be open!") and "slippery slope" concerns (e.g. "but if they make it so convenient, what will stop them from controlling the world!?" as if new competition wouldn't instantly spring up to replace them).
How does not allowing users to sideload apps benefit users? How does not having apps in the App Store that "duplicate functionality" but offer more choice benefit users?
If you don't allow users to load apps you haven't vetted you can do a better job of making sure they never have a bad experience on your device.
Personally I would go for offering some kind of "opt in" that says you know what you're doing and willing to worry about it yourself for people who feel constrained (personally, despite being a developer myself, I would never "opt in". I don't have time to worry about if an app is going to cause trouble or not).
Similar answer with duplicate stores. The thing is, when people have a bad experience because of some stupid app they installed they often aren't technical enough to say "darn that mypic.exe! It screwed my computer". Instead they say "why did my iphone break! What a peace of crap". If you don't believe me, go look up what the actual source for most blue screens were on windows. Who got the bad rap for it? Bill Gates didn't seem to be bothered by it too much but I think being the richest man in the world but having that rep would be the same thing as utter failure to Steve Jobs.
Personally I would go for offering some kind of "opt in" that says you know what you're doing and willing to worry about it yourself for people who feel constrained (personally, despite being a developer myself, I would never "opt in". I don't have time to worry about if an app is going to cause trouble or not).
Similar answer with duplicate stores. The thing is, when people have a bad experience because of some stupid app they installed they often aren't technical enough to say "darn that mypic.exe! It screwed my computer". Instead they say "why did my iphone break! What a peace of crap". If you don't believe me, go look up what the actual source for most blue screens were on windows. Who got the bad rap for it? Bill Gates didn't seem to be bothered by it too much but I think being the richest man in the world but having that rep would be the same thing as utter failure to Steve Jobs.
This is a big deal for me, I HATE that carriers can install 5+ crapware apps on my phone that are completely uninstallable without rooting your phone.
I let my nephew play with my phone for about 15 minutes one afternoon and a month later I get a bill for "Need for Speed". Turns out he opened NFS and pressed a single button to play the full version.
Another way to hide the apps it to use Launcher Pro.
I let my nephew play with my phone for about 15 minutes one afternoon and a month later I get a bill for "Need for Speed". Turns out he opened NFS and pressed a single button to play the full version.
Another way to hide the apps it to use Launcher Pro.
I personally don't have a big problem with carriers loading apps on the phones as long as they don't interfere with what I do, but it is mind boggling how idiotic the "rest" of the industry is in not identifying this opportunity. It took the PC industry only a decade or so to start offering crapware free computers - first at $50 premium and now free as an option. May be the carriers can do better.
The carriers should really stay out of the software side - less spending for them, clean experience for users and let the manufacturers do what they know best. If the OHA members just stood up for themselves and convince the carriers, I can easily see it happening.
In a way T-Mo has taken the right direction for G2, hopefully each manufacturer offers at least one clean experience phone per carrier.
The carriers should really stay out of the software side - less spending for them, clean experience for users and let the manufacturers do what they know best. If the OHA members just stood up for themselves and convince the carriers, I can easily see it happening.
In a way T-Mo has taken the right direction for G2, hopefully each manufacturer offers at least one clean experience phone per carrier.
> It took the PC industry only a decade or so to start offering crapware free computers - first at $50 premium and now free as an option.
What PC manufacturers do this? I can't think of a single mainstream one, though maybe I'm just uninformed.
The reason small PC manufacturers can do this is because there's simply more of them, since the barriers to entry are much smaller than setting up a wireless network.
What PC manufacturers do this? I can't think of a single mainstream one, though maybe I'm just uninformed.
The reason small PC manufacturers can do this is because there's simply more of them, since the barriers to entry are much smaller than setting up a wireless network.
Sony did with fresh start.
Interesting. From the looks of a little searching, it was unusually for them.
Crapware isn't an expense, it's a source of revenue. Think of it like the ads on Google's result page. Just another conduit for commerce the carrier and manufacturer use improve profitability.
Deciding to kill a source of revenue, whether it's more appealing to the consumer or not, becomes harder to justify when that source of revenue is paying off creditors and funding new development.
Deciding to kill a source of revenue, whether it's more appealing to the consumer or not, becomes harder to justify when that source of revenue is paying off creditors and funding new development.
A gigantic source of high margin incremental revenue. If Dell generates one signup to $ANTIVIRUS_MAKER_FOO, that can be worth about as much as the sale of the machine to Dell's bottom line. (For these and other scary insights, I suggest attending shareware conferences.)
Think of it like the ads on Google's result page
The ads on Google's result page bring in about 75% of their revenue. If it's like that for telecos and crapware, they no wonder they don't want to lose it.
The ads on Google's result page bring in about 75% of their revenue. If it's like that for telecos and crapware, they no wonder they don't want to lose it.
When I referred to spending I was thinking more about carriers taking responsibility of writing the custom apps, testing and distributing the OS updates etc. If they let the manufacturer do that (like Apple) they would have less stuff to bother about.
As far as crapware goes - yeah it might be ad like revenue but I can't imagine it's a major part of revenue for carriers - they can mitigate it by charging little more for the clean experience models.
As far as crapware goes - yeah it might be ad like revenue but I can't imagine it's a major part of revenue for carriers - they can mitigate it by charging little more for the clean experience models.
Sometimes all of the profit is where you'd least expect it. $10 per month for VZNavigator? How much of that is really a cost to Verizon?
See also: extended warranties.
See also: extended warranties.
And don't forget your Monster Cable accessories
[deleted]
Really glad for this. I use Verizon, but keep buying Samsung SCH-a650's off of Ebay because it was made before Verizon installed their crappy software on every one of its phones.
On the wifi access point side, its nice and all that one of the us carriers have infrastructure in place and maybe the other doesn't. What about the rest of the world? My carrier was built from the ground up to use 3G can I share an access point over wifi?
This has been coming up again and again, but the question I have to ask: did anybody actually expect apple to let verizon pre-install anything?
so only apple will be allowed to install things over the air on my device when I get the verizon iPhone? sadly i find that comforting
Great news. Now how about that mobile hotspot?
Will it be free or an extra $20 per month like Verizon's other phones? There seems to be confusion on this point.
Will it be free or an extra $20 per month like Verizon's other phones? There seems to be confusion on this point.
I love using the Nexus One with its pure Google-Android experience. I have yet to upgrade to Nexus S.