The United States Needs a Universal System to Pay for Public Transit(citylab.com)
citylab.com
The United States Needs a Universal System to Pay for Public Transit
https://www.citylab.com/perspective/2019/04/public-transit-app-ticket-bus-pass-subway-fare-travel-tips/586495/
104 comments
> Standardizing a fare payment system just does the same for mass transit.
No it doesn't. Japan has a standardized mass transit fare payment system, covering close enough to the entire country, and you can get in on that with a card purchased, and topped up, completely anonymously in cash.
No it doesn't. Japan has a standardized mass transit fare payment system, covering close enough to the entire country, and you can get in on that with a card purchased, and topped up, completely anonymously in cash.
The fare card system they implemented here tracks everywhere you go on their system. If you use the tickets you pay more, if you don't register your card, good luck when something goes wrong with it(and it will).
Your options are, travel anonymously, and pay more or risk losing the money on your fare card due to them just deciding not work anymore, loss etc. I've gone through 4 now in about three years. Two just stopped working and i lost two. They also don't give your $6 deposit back, so i've now spent an extra $24 i'll never get back, for nothing on top of the money i lost on the first two cards. I've registered them since.
Or
Get tracked constantly any and everywhere you go on transit.
Your options are, travel anonymously, and pay more or risk losing the money on your fare card due to them just deciding not work anymore, loss etc. I've gone through 4 now in about three years. Two just stopped working and i lost two. They also don't give your $6 deposit back, so i've now spent an extra $24 i'll never get back, for nothing on top of the money i lost on the first two cards. I've registered them since.
Or
Get tracked constantly any and everywhere you go on transit.
> If you use the tickets you pay more, if you don't register your card, good luck when something goes wrong with it(and it will).
Counterpoint: No it won't, necessarily. I've never had an issue with one of these IC cards (edit: in over 10 years of using them). I've lost one, that's it. I've lost more of the paper tickets _inside_ the station than that.
Do you have actual data on the failure rates of IC cards?
Counterpoint: No it won't, necessarily. I've never had an issue with one of these IC cards (edit: in over 10 years of using them). I've lost one, that's it. I've lost more of the paper tickets _inside_ the station than that.
Do you have actual data on the failure rates of IC cards?
Presumably you mean Suica and compatible systems like Passmo.
It's anonymous at point of top-up, that's true. But when the card is issued, an ID should be shown.
It's anonymous at point of top-up, that's true. But when the card is issued, an ID should be shown.
There's literally nothing stopping govts from putting up licence plate scanners everywhere already. This seems like a silly criticism.
> There's literally nothing stopping govts from putting up licence plate scanners everywhere already.
Except for the courts which have started to tell them that they can't do that.
Except for the courts which have started to tell them that they can't do that.
Not to mention the networked telemetry systems present in almost all modern cars. GPS is standard, as are "smart" entertainment consoles. Our cars already generate tons of data that can be used to track us, I'd be far more comfortable with recording a single data point on a toll road than I would having every single one of my movements tracked.
What, you think they haven't already done that?
Many toll highways use license plate recognition to do billing for non-transponder cars.
Many toll highways use license plate recognition to do billing for non-transponder cars.
Do you only use cash wherever you go? And no cell phone? Because you can already be tracked by credit cards and cell phones anyway.
You will be tracked, you might as well get some benefit from it, right?
You will be tracked, you might as well get some benefit from it, right?
Or we could get transit systems that won't track us, payment systems that won't track us and cell phones that won't track us.
Hoping that that is like hoping for going back to when there was no income tax. The government gets too much benefit from the tracking, there is no way they'd ever give it up, just like the income tax.
Who is "the government"? That guy sounds like a jerk. If only we had some kind of system for changing the government when a majority of people agree that we've had enough of the existing policies.
That's why innovation happens. People don't just role over, they invent open source cell phones, and cryptocurrency etc.
We have this. It's called a Federal Reserve Note. You may have seen them before.
CityLab is beyond parody. Yes, sure, the real problem with public transit is that jet-setting tourists have to install new apps on their iPhoneX in each city they visit.
CityLab is beyond parody. Yes, sure, the real problem with public transit is that jet-setting tourists have to install new apps on their iPhoneX in each city they visit.
London already doesn't allow cash on buses. There's huge costs in installing bill collectors. People paying cash on a bus slows everyone else down. Making everything electronic would solve a lot of issues.
I think this is less of a big deal in London because-- and the article entirely glosses over this prospect-- TfL accept contactless (e.g. contactless-enabled debit/credit cards, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay). This means anyone can land in London and immediately ride public transit using their existing bank card.
> This means anyone can land in London and immediately ride public transit using their existing bank card.
*Anyone with a bank account. Or is this a less significant problem in the UK compared to the US?
*Anyone with a bank account. Or is this a less significant problem in the UK compared to the US?
Buying a smartcard or even magnetic day ticket for cash needs not be hard.
It isn't, but if you're wanting to board a bus you'll need to find an open newsagents or rail station nearby to sell you one. In which case the universal smartcard or app suddenly seems a lot more convenient
Is finding an open newsagent/rail station really that big of a deal?
In Sweden (in Skåne at least, since the rail/bus solutions are all regional there) you have both options. You can buy your tickets on an app that you scan on the bus or train, or you can buy a smart card anonymously with cash when there is an open newsstand/rail station and use that to beep onto trains and buses. So if you go the anonymous route when you need to top up your smart card with money you can do it with cash from a kiosk in an automated machine 24/7, so long as there is a kiosk around (every rail station has them).
With a fair bit of planning it’s not too hard to stay completely credit-card and app free with this solution. You just have to make sure that you are near an open rail station/newsstand to purchase the smartcard initially (and I think even some of the grocery stores sell them) and then onwards have enough money on the smart card to get you to where you can top up from a kiosk. Given the rail coverage in Sweden it’s not too hard to do.
In Sweden (in Skåne at least, since the rail/bus solutions are all regional there) you have both options. You can buy your tickets on an app that you scan on the bus or train, or you can buy a smart card anonymously with cash when there is an open newsstand/rail station and use that to beep onto trains and buses. So if you go the anonymous route when you need to top up your smart card with money you can do it with cash from a kiosk in an automated machine 24/7, so long as there is a kiosk around (every rail station has them).
With a fair bit of planning it’s not too hard to stay completely credit-card and app free with this solution. You just have to make sure that you are near an open rail station/newsstand to purchase the smartcard initially (and I think even some of the grocery stores sell them) and then onwards have enough money on the smart card to get you to where you can top up from a kiosk. Given the rail coverage in Sweden it’s not too hard to do.
I agree. I'm only trying to show that an electronic ticket and not being personally tracked are compatible, unlike suggested upthread. All it takes is to buy / refill an electronic ticket with cash.
And yet it often is. And, even when it isn't, knowing how much to pay can be hard.
The ideal system is one in which you use the "universal transit payment card" desired in the article to get on the transit system, then use it again to get off (if the transit system requires it - no all do), without having to give even a single thought to how much money you are spending.
When you have different payment cards/passes/tickets in different systems, you have to figure out not only how to buy those tickets, but how much to buy (so that you don't depart the area having vastly overbought - or so that you don't run out of loaded fare value before you end your trip).
The ideal system is one in which you use the "universal transit payment card" desired in the article to get on the transit system, then use it again to get off (if the transit system requires it - no all do), without having to give even a single thought to how much money you are spending.
When you have different payment cards/passes/tickets in different systems, you have to figure out not only how to buy those tickets, but how much to buy (so that you don't depart the area having vastly overbought - or so that you don't run out of loaded fare value before you end your trip).
There are transit systems that literally do not accept cash. The light rail trains, trolleys, and to some extent BRT all come to mind in Seattle.
Seattleite here. This is false. You can pay for all of the services you named with cash.
You have to buy an Orca card with cash, then pay the fare with the Orca card. It's indirect, and any remaining balance isn't in your pocket. The point is: you can't pay cash at boarding.
You don't have to buy an ORCA card. The ticket machines dispense both paper tickets and ORCA cards. The ORCA cards cost $5, so most tourists opt for paper tickets instead.
No, you don't have to buy an ORCA card. You can buy a paper ticket for the exact fare at a ticket vending machine, which are available at every Link station.
You can pay with cash at all of the link stations. The ticket machines will take cash and dispense a paper ticket.
And you can totally pay cash on the RapidRide buses, you just have to board via the front door of the bus. (If you pay with an ORCA card you can board via the back door if you want to, but if you're paying cash you have to board normally).
And you can totally pay cash on the RapidRide buses, you just have to board via the front door of the bus. (If you pay with an ORCA card you can board via the back door if you want to, but if you're paying cash you have to board normally).
The light rail and trolleys in Seattle do accept cash at Westlake and similar large stations. Busses do as well...
You cannot board the light rail (nor BRT) and present cash. You have to buy an Orca card first, which are available in various locations, but chiefly, none of those locations are inside the light rail or BRT.
Ticket vending machines, which sell both ORCA cards and fare tickets, are available at every light rail station.
For BRT, you can pay cash at the time of boarding.
For BRT, you can pay cash at the time of boarding.
You can pay with cash at the ticket machines at all of the link stations, not just Westlake/large stations.
You can buy an orca card for $5 and then add money on it at multiple places.
You clearly don't travel much and try to navigate different public transit systems.
I travel domestically and internationally, and I always have cash - and it is almost always much more difficult than it should be to pay for public transit, just like the article says.
I travel domestically and internationally, and I always have cash - and it is almost always much more difficult than it should be to pay for public transit, just like the article says.
woosh
Most public transit riders in the U.S. don't travel much and don't try to navigate different public transit systems. This is not a problem that affects the real users of public transit in the U.S., and it's not what's holding back broader adoption of public transit.
Most public transit riders in the U.S. don't travel much and don't try to navigate different public transit systems. This is not a problem that affects the real users of public transit in the U.S., and it's not what's holding back broader adoption of public transit.
I haven't touched a physical dollar bill in multiple years.
Assuming you’re in the US, what do you do if you lose connectivity, like leaving an urban area? What’s your option if you break your phone?
what options would you suggest for the unbanked or those without smartphones?
Just because you haven’t handled actu al cash in a while doesn’t mean others haven’t. A large percentage of people still rely on cash transactions to get thru the day.
what options would you suggest for the unbanked or those without smartphones?
Just because you haven’t handled actu al cash in a while doesn’t mean others haven’t. A large percentage of people still rely on cash transactions to get thru the day.
No offense, but have you heard of credit/debit/check cards? I rarely use my phone for payments unless I forget my wallet.
All I'm suggesting is that the "federal reserve note" is not as universal anymore. It's only practically useful if I have it.
All I'm suggesting is that the "federal reserve note" is not as universal anymore. It's only practically useful if I have it.
So? ATMs are everywhere. If you need to access transit in a pinch, you can just take out some cash. It's the universal fallback payment.
Have you ever taken a bus? Every bus I've ever taken doesn't give change, so it's not a matter of just getting a $20 bill from an ATM and being good to go. You have to have exact change (and often it's not an even dollar amount which is that much more of a pain).
Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such. If enough people pay cash, it slows down the bus significantly. We should be trying to get to the point where nobody pays cash when boarding buses for this reason alone.
Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such. If enough people pay cash, it slows down the bus significantly. We should be trying to get to the point where nobody pays cash when boarding buses for this reason alone.
> Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such.
Around here, on board the busses, they have completely automated machines that can read all the notes and dispense change automatically, they even seem pretty robust at it (crumpled bills, etc work fine) - they essentially as good a job as it's possible to do with cash.
And it still takes agonizingly longer than tapping a transit card and everyone else on the bus hates you.
Around here, on board the busses, they have completely automated machines that can read all the notes and dispense change automatically, they even seem pretty robust at it (crumpled bills, etc work fine) - they essentially as good a job as it's possible to do with cash.
And it still takes agonizingly longer than tapping a transit card and everyone else on the bus hates you.
Most transit systems do not provide any change. So if you go to an ATM and get $20, then break it for a $2.00 fare, you lose $18.00. That's not a solution.
I bought a train ticket the other day from a vending machine. You put in a $20 and it spits out a ticket and your change. Systems that are incapable of doing this are designed poorly. That is not a shortcoming of cash or technology, it is a shortcoming of the transit operator.
That's not the only issue. Cash also slows down the system. If I shove my crumpled dollar bill into the machine it will slow down the whole route, adding cost for the agency. The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple.
This is why you have tickets or transit tokens. You can buy one on the bus/train, but then it costs 30% more and so nobody does that. Then you can buy a token using any payment method you like, whenever you like. Buy them from a vending machine at the train station with cash, order a month's worth on your credit card and have them shipped to your home, whatever you prefer.
Dropping an exact value coin into a machine is a solved problem, is reliable, instantaneous, has automatic redundancy in high volume locations because there will be multiple machines, protects privacy, etc.
> The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple.
That is not a significant cost. The service is paid a small amount of money to collect a much larger amount of money, and if you do more frequent pickups then less security is required and the ratio stays low.
Meanwhile with cash you don't have to deal with chargebacks, computer intrusions, processing fees, etc.
Dropping an exact value coin into a machine is a solved problem, is reliable, instantaneous, has automatic redundancy in high volume locations because there will be multiple machines, protects privacy, etc.
> The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple.
That is not a significant cost. The service is paid a small amount of money to collect a much larger amount of money, and if you do more frequent pickups then less security is required and the ratio stays low.
Meanwhile with cash you don't have to deal with chargebacks, computer intrusions, processing fees, etc.
Parent comment is referring to a ticket vending machine external to the coach, not an on-coach bill acceptor. It does not slow down the route.
Yes, I too love paying exorbitant fees for the privilege of taking money out of an ATM.
I pay $0 for debit transactions, but anywhere from $1 to $4 for an ATM withdrawal.
I pay $0 for debit transactions, but anywhere from $1 to $4 for an ATM withdrawal.
You should switch banks or join a credit union.
Why? So I can take filthy money I never use out of an ATM I don't want to use?
Not ever carrying cash is just as much a defense measure as it is a practical measure, though also almost everything supports some form of electronic payments, be it in the form of plastic or phone.
Alternative solution: Stop charging fares for mass transit. Pay for it with taxes and let the people who don't use mass transit subsidize it anyway.
This is, logistically, a superior solution. The trouble is collecting taxes: we're pretty bad at it. Even in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, transit is perennially under-funded by wealthy tech firms' taxes and over-utilized by their employees.
"This is the superior solution but we haven't done it yet" seems like a pretty good argument for doing it.
It's not as if the problem is that the government doesn't actually know how to collect taxes. What you're really identifying is a different problem -- the government keeps not funding transit. But that's a completely independent problem. Look at what they do with fuel tax revenues. They're generally supposed to go to transportation but half the states spend the money trying to fill the hole in their unfunded pensions and then complain that they have no money for transportation.
The real question is, would people accept a small increase in sales or income tax in exchange for an elimination of transit fares? To which the answer is probably yes. Because even if you can't use mass transit for whatever reason, everybody loves getting other drivers off the road, which is exactly what making mass transit free would do.
If the legislature subsequently diverts the new money that was supposed to go to transit, that problem is independent and preexisting. And once mass transit is free, more people would use it, creating a larger lobby for making it better.
It's not as if the problem is that the government doesn't actually know how to collect taxes. What you're really identifying is a different problem -- the government keeps not funding transit. But that's a completely independent problem. Look at what they do with fuel tax revenues. They're generally supposed to go to transportation but half the states spend the money trying to fill the hole in their unfunded pensions and then complain that they have no money for transportation.
The real question is, would people accept a small increase in sales or income tax in exchange for an elimination of transit fares? To which the answer is probably yes. Because even if you can't use mass transit for whatever reason, everybody loves getting other drivers off the road, which is exactly what making mass transit free would do.
If the legislature subsequently diverts the new money that was supposed to go to transit, that problem is independent and preexisting. And once mass transit is free, more people would use it, creating a larger lobby for making it better.
Penny pinching on a government level seems to be symptomatic of local wealth not paying its fair share. No one ever got wealthy collecting a government pension. Where is the money going? It's going into offshore accounts, and corporate tax shelters.
That doesn't mesh with taxes being approximately the same percentage of GDP as they've been since 1950, and spending being even higher than that, meanwhile GDP per capita has been growing the whole time.
The only remaining conclusion is that we're spending it wrong.
The only remaining conclusion is that we're spending it wrong.
> taxes being approximately the same percentage of GDP
This would astound me. I wonder how you square this belief with, e.g. reports like these: https://itep.org/notadime/
This would astound me. I wonder how you square this belief with, e.g. reports like these: https://itep.org/notadime/
I will not pay for your transportation. Believe it or not, it is ludicrous to many to imagine such a tax.
Are you fine with taxes paying for roads just not trains and buses, or do you not even want roads? The first is inconsistent and the second is a very small minority position.
Because this kind of infrastructure is heavy on fixed costs. It takes money to build or operate it, but once you do, the cost of the incremental car or the incremental passenger is so close to zero that collecting a fare equal to the actual marginal cost would cost more to collect than the amount of the fare. But charging more than that would unduly discourage productive use of the infrastructure that is already being paid for.
Which means the most efficient pricing strategy is flat rate. And since ~0% of the population consists of hermits who never use any form of transportation, that makes it one of the most appropriate things to fund with taxes.
Because this kind of infrastructure is heavy on fixed costs. It takes money to build or operate it, but once you do, the cost of the incremental car or the incremental passenger is so close to zero that collecting a fare equal to the actual marginal cost would cost more to collect than the amount of the fare. But charging more than that would unduly discourage productive use of the infrastructure that is already being paid for.
Which means the most efficient pricing strategy is flat rate. And since ~0% of the population consists of hermits who never use any form of transportation, that makes it one of the most appropriate things to fund with taxes.
You should pay for _your_ society.
Public education improves your standard of living: do you want illiterate neighbors?
Public transit similarly improves the quality of your neighbors, enabling them to take better jobs, live in less expensive housing, contribute less to traffic, pollution, auto deaths. They have more free time to read books (can't do that while driving!) and work on hobbies, or side-businesses.
Public transit raises all boats. So, really, you're buying something _for yourself_ that's not available at any store: happier, healthier, and more competent friends, family, neighbors, teachers, clerks, politicians, mechanics, etc.
Public education improves your standard of living: do you want illiterate neighbors?
Public transit similarly improves the quality of your neighbors, enabling them to take better jobs, live in less expensive housing, contribute less to traffic, pollution, auto deaths. They have more free time to read books (can't do that while driving!) and work on hobbies, or side-businesses.
Public transit raises all boats. So, really, you're buying something _for yourself_ that's not available at any store: happier, healthier, and more competent friends, family, neighbors, teachers, clerks, politicians, mechanics, etc.
NYC and Boston are also working on accepting contactless NFC payments through phones and credit cards that support it. Chicago already does, so it feels like we are headed there! Japan standardized to a countrywide compatible payment system years ago, though that seemed to be a technical nightmare as they appear to have merged a ton of existing local standards. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ICCard_Connection_en...
Oh no those things are aweful. Those are meant for only strict pay per ride situations. (At least with the credit cards)
Other things you have to consider:
1. Protected classes on the value (senior, students) 2. Wage benefit classes (that's where the fare is pretaxed) 3. Transfers
Being a person that had his CC charged over his ventra card (which has a full monthly pass) this crap pisses me off.
Other things you have to consider:
1. Protected classes on the value (senior, students) 2. Wage benefit classes (that's where the fare is pretaxed) 3. Transfers
Being a person that had his CC charged over his ventra card (which has a full monthly pass) this crap pisses me off.
Ouch that's unfortunate and I can imagine the impossibility of a refund if the wrong card in a wallet of compatible cards is charged... I had a good experience with London's tube tracking my contactless CC usage properly though (full price fare, transfers, up to a daily max after x pounds).
So heres the thing..
I can't request a refund.
To Ventra.. I presented a valid payment. I accepted service and recieved service.
To the Credit card company, they're garbage. I can't opt out of a contactless card. I chewed out the CC CSR.. but they try to frame it as me being in a bad situation. ("That sounds like a terrible situation, I can understand how this can be frustrating in a big city") BTW: This is chase.
I can't request a refund.
To Ventra.. I presented a valid payment. I accepted service and recieved service.
To the Credit card company, they're garbage. I can't opt out of a contactless card. I chewed out the CC CSR.. but they try to frame it as me being in a bad situation. ("That sounds like a terrible situation, I can understand how this can be frustrating in a big city") BTW: This is chase.
Why? How? This would have to be a Federal program, and it doesn't fall under their purview to provide such a program. The States are all independent in this regard. For example, even though we all have Driver's Licenses, the 50 states have merely agreed to honor other DLs from other states.
Wikipedia says that E-ZPass (which is a transponder used for car toll collection) is accepted in
> Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, Virginia, West Virginia
> Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, Virginia, West Virginia
> This would have to be a Federal program
No it wouldn't, though that would be an option. Common standards for public services don't even necessarily require a formal direct agreement between all participants, much less a central mandate.
> and it doesn't fall under their purview to provide such a program
That's... debatable. Providing for post roads (which is an important use of most public roads) is an explicit federal mandate, and promoting efficiency in the shared uses of such roads is certainly closely-enough tied to the that function to be a legitimate pursuit as part of it; tying such a standard to, e.g., federal infrastructure funding is very hard to view as illegitimate.
No it wouldn't, though that would be an option. Common standards for public services don't even necessarily require a formal direct agreement between all participants, much less a central mandate.
> and it doesn't fall under their purview to provide such a program
That's... debatable. Providing for post roads (which is an important use of most public roads) is an explicit federal mandate, and promoting efficiency in the shared uses of such roads is certainly closely-enough tied to the that function to be a legitimate pursuit as part of it; tying such a standard to, e.g., federal infrastructure funding is very hard to view as illegitimate.
Stretchy McStretchface. That's not even close to debatable. This (pork) is why we can't have nice things.
"merely agreed" because it's required by the US Constitution
The constitution requires that contracts be honored place to place, but not certifications or licenses. Legal and professional groups have different licenses in different states and don't cross honor. Teacher licenses are only good in one state, for example. Many states don't recognize concealed carry permits from states with less stringent licensing requirements.
is it? I wasn't aware that it was.
Doesn't seem especially different from the arguments for or against the Federal highway system.
I don't know that normal contactless cards (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, etc.) couldn't be used as-is. Tap on >> full charge. Tap off >> short trip refund. Here in southern Ontario, Metrolinx Presto cards work this way, and I don't see anything about them that can't be accomplished with standard contactless credit cards.
In London (UK) you just get charged the next day. No pre-charge.
The chances of someone having a card that won't accept a ten quid charge is fairly minimal and TfL just ban cards that get declined.
The chances of someone having a card that won't accept a ten quid charge is fairly minimal and TfL just ban cards that get declined.
That's cool, why do people bother with Oyster then? I get it if you're trying to delegate it to a minor, but why do adults use something other than a credit card?
Oyster came first, and is still useful for tourists and other people who for whatever reason don't have contactless cards. And you can have prepaid season tickets on Oyster cards, which works for a lot of commuters
You cannot put a railcard on a contactless card.
Very roughly, age 30-60 aren't eligible for discounts. Older or younger than that are.
It should be possible for TfL to accomplish this but thus far it's not done.
Very roughly, age 30-60 aren't eligible for discounts. Older or younger than that are.
It should be possible for TfL to accomplish this but thus far it's not done.
Can you load a season/discounted fare pass on a credit card?
> Can you load a season/discounted fare pass on a credit card?
When it comes to discounts, you can accomplish that by identifying the card as a discounted fare card. When it comes to a season pass, just identify the card then don't process a payment.
As for the feasibility of this, I don't know, but there is almost certainly a viable mechanism for each of these things.
When it comes to discounts, you can accomplish that by identifying the card as a discounted fare card. When it comes to a season pass, just identify the card then don't process a payment.
As for the feasibility of this, I don't know, but there is almost certainly a viable mechanism for each of these things.
The big argument against this (for public transit agencies) is likely transaction fees: it's going to be more expensive for the agency to process a bunch of tiny transactions for each trip than it will be to process relatively few larger transactions when a stored-value card is refilled.
The other obvious downside is more of a logistical thing: credit card transactions need connectivity. With a stored-value card system, transactions don't need a network to clear (everything's happening locally between the card and the reader); this means you don't have big backups if networks go down, you don't have a time lag waiting for transactions to clear, and you can place readers in locations where connectivity isn't guaranteed (like buses).
That said, it's not unheard-of for public transit to take standard contactless credit cards. For example, Transport for London (at least theoretically) takes contactless payment systemwide.
The other obvious downside is more of a logistical thing: credit card transactions need connectivity. With a stored-value card system, transactions don't need a network to clear (everything's happening locally between the card and the reader); this means you don't have big backups if networks go down, you don't have a time lag waiting for transactions to clear, and you can place readers in locations where connectivity isn't guaranteed (like buses).
That said, it's not unheard-of for public transit to take standard contactless credit cards. For example, Transport for London (at least theoretically) takes contactless payment systemwide.
> The big argument against this (for public transit agencies) is likely transaction fees: it's going to be more expensive for the agency to process a bunch of tiny transactions for each trip than it will be to process relatively few larger transactions when a stored-value card is refilled.
Yeah, though I think they could negotiate better fees given the volume (not that I think public transit authorities tend to be good at much at all without considerable public interest). I guess time will tell.
Here in Canada, I think average merchant fees for the credit part are less than 1% overall, not sure if that would end up being such a big issue; especially when compared with the cost of administering a whole new system (anti-money-laundering, fraud detection, security, development, integration, support etc. etc).
Yeah, though I think they could negotiate better fees given the volume (not that I think public transit authorities tend to be good at much at all without considerable public interest). I guess time will tell.
Here in Canada, I think average merchant fees for the credit part are less than 1% overall, not sure if that would end up being such a big issue; especially when compared with the cost of administering a whole new system (anti-money-laundering, fraud detection, security, development, integration, support etc. etc).
They can charge higher fares to people who pay with contactless credit cards (as opposed to their own card). Many agencies already do this - for example, Caltrain and BART charge higher fares to those who aren't using a Clipper card. As long as the difference is high enough to offset the fees, this should not be an issue.
But it costs TfL more to run its Oyster program than it would if everyone just used contactless. Oyster and contactless in London are equal with a few exceptions relating to how daily/weekly caps are counted.
That may not be the case in the US where card transaction fees are much, much higher.
Back to the original citylab article. They should get the fed to reduce cc fees so things like this are cheap.
We need to decentralize all the things! One organization cannot have a hold on multiple organizations.
We need to centralize all the things! One organization needs to unify all other organizations.
We need to centralize all the things! One organization needs to unify all other organizations.
Cooperating doesn't mean centralised. Payment systems using common standard can be compatible and the payments distributed behind the scenes. You can still have a number of federated systems taking to each other without a central organisation.
The United States needs decent public transit.
A universal payment system serves those who travel between cities/states. Decent public transit serves everyone who commutes every day in the same city, even those who don't use the service. I imagine the second group is larger than the first.
A universal payment system serves those who travel between cities/states. Decent public transit serves everyone who commutes every day in the same city, even those who don't use the service. I imagine the second group is larger than the first.
What got me was right here.
> day, the Clipper card must handle some 35,000 fare rules that determine how much a Bay Area ride costs.
Just go fully subsidized and stop collecting fares. There problem solved. Seriously the most efficient way to do X is usually don't do X.
> day, the Clipper card must handle some 35,000 fare rules that determine how much a Bay Area ride costs.
Just go fully subsidized and stop collecting fares. There problem solved. Seriously the most efficient way to do X is usually don't do X.
The United States [ok]
needs [opinion and/or unprovable]
decent [what defines decent? I'd say it's pretty decent already, and I've lived in Europe on foot.]
public transit [Who pays? If I have a car, I don't need it and won't pay for it unless you force me with a gun.]
Would be better to have some kind of digital payment system that didn't involve credit, and that was free, essentially a true electronic currency. It doesn't have to be blockchain and it's fine if it were centrally managed. Would be nice if it were anonymous.
What would be nicer if it was actually secure. But out side of certain alphabet agencies, government-provided security is a pipe-dream.
If you opened up public transport for everyone, you'd never be able to use it. The homeless will overwhelm it as a new home. They do that in Chicago but it's much more limited because they have to spend money to do that.
It's a small point, but perhaps a relevant one for the trustworthiness of the article and the author: you can pay for a Baltimore bus with a DC metro card. The article confidently states an incorrect fact.
After having tried it exclusively for 1 month, I absolutely loath public transport and would never use it if I had another choice.
And I think it should be free for everyone.
I would even support being taxed in order to expand it. (Improving it isn't possible IMO.)
CMV: Roads are free, why shouldn't public transport be free?
Being able to get around should be one of those services governments provide, and they should provide people with choices in how they prefer to get around. (Different people like different things, I hate public transport, but other people don't.)
And I think it should be free for everyone.
I would even support being taxed in order to expand it. (Improving it isn't possible IMO.)
CMV: Roads are free, why shouldn't public transport be free?
Being able to get around should be one of those services governments provide, and they should provide people with choices in how they prefer to get around. (Different people like different things, I hate public transport, but other people don't.)
And Europe as well... (Though I'd be happy if we'd start with at least a unified system within Germany.)
How about the US just gets a proper transit system in the first place? Is this really our biggest problem?
All the better to track you with, my dear.
Those drive by toll scanners are great for paying tolls. Also really great for recording, for all time, everyone who drives under them.
Standardizing a fare payment system just does the same for mass transit.
Not that there aren’t programs to add facial recognition in all these spaces which could be good enough, but why make it easy?
Until there’s a Federal privacy framework which limits the amount and duration of information the government can collect, and some reason to believe the NSA, DEA, and FBI are actually adhering to those agreements, above and beyond admissibility in court, I am staunchly opposed to any of these systems in the name of efficiency.
It needs to be illegal to use these tolling systems for surveillance, because the next “gas tax” is squaring up to be a GPS based mileage tax.