Tesla Model 3 Performance with Track Mode Beats a Ferrari's Record(teslarati.com)
teslarati.com
Tesla Model 3 Performance with Track Mode Beats a Ferrari's Record
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-beats-ferrari-closed-circuit-test/
38 comments
Maybe I misread something... But it sounds like they upgraded the tires, and the track mode at the same time, then ran 2 seconds faster. How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster, and not just the tires. Tires make a HUGE difference. This is a bad test, IMO.
Agreed, the times are rendered uncomparable since they changed the tires - increasing both size and stickiness!
It's bogus.
It's bogus.
If you read the original article, they also swapped out the brake pads for Brembo brakes and pre-cooled both the motors and battery pack before doing the lap. Not really a 1:1 comparison.
To you, it's bogus. To a consumer, they're getting Ferrari performance for hundreds of thousands of dollars less by slapping a different set of tires on. It's marketing, and it's done well. Just another lever pulled to stoke demand for the (higher margin) Performance version, and it was done with a software upgrade.
> and it was done with a software upgrade
What was done with a software upgrade? We have zero meaningful measurement of what the software upgrade alone achieved because they changed so much in addition to it.
The time improvement is on the order of what would be expected when adding tire width and softness.
What was done with a software upgrade? We have zero meaningful measurement of what the software upgrade alone achieved because they changed so much in addition to it.
The time improvement is on the order of what would be expected when adding tire width and softness.
It's mostly incredible performance of the time to market. The improvements made it into the consumer version within two weeks, not two years.
> How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster
Just the testament of the driver.
Just the testament of the driver.
Not only did they upgrade the original tires to track-oriented, barely street legal tires but also they upgraded to track-oriented brakes. Both of these have very large effects on track times. Adjusting handling characteristics to the preferences of the same driver who then sets the lap times is somewhat of a cheat too.
The link to is a blog spam article that makes is it appear as if the Tesla was faster than a current Ferrari model but in reality, it was an 8-year old model. I don't see a lap time for the Ferrari 488 but the Lamborghini Huracan Performante was much faster: 1:18.73 vs 1:21.49 with Randy Probst. The 2018 Nissan GT-R Nismo was also faster. (https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-wil...)
The biggest problem is not mentioned at all - the Tesla can do only about 4 laps (4-5 estimated here https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-romeo/giulia/2019/tesla... but the track tires limit the range further).
The link to is a blog spam article that makes is it appear as if the Tesla was faster than a current Ferrari model but in reality, it was an 8-year old model. I don't see a lap time for the Ferrari 488 but the Lamborghini Huracan Performante was much faster: 1:18.73 vs 1:21.49 with Randy Probst. The 2018 Nissan GT-R Nismo was also faster. (https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-wil...)
The biggest problem is not mentioned at all - the Tesla can do only about 4 laps (4-5 estimated here https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-romeo/giulia/2019/tesla... but the track tires limit the range further).
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires are fairly commonplace for performance cars and included from the factory on many models. I wouldn't call them "barely street legal"
Those things are not mutually exclusive.
PSC2s are optional on a lot of high performance vehicles and in many cases standard with the top performance package.
They are also pretty much as close to a slick tire as you can get without compromising all wet performance. There are tires that are more "barely legal" but there aren't many.
The reason they're so widely offered on performance cars is that they are basically cheater tires. They're street legal and grip like hell, but they also cost a lot, make a lot of noise, wear incredibly quickly, and can't be used in cold temperatures. I'm not aware of a single car sold with them as standard equipment which doesn't also offer a less insane tire as an add-on.
Basically they're used so automakers can get good numbers, no one in their right mind actually daily drives these tires. The PS4S used in the original test is generally regarded as one of the best tires for a daily driven performance car.
PSC2s are optional on a lot of high performance vehicles and in many cases standard with the top performance package.
They are also pretty much as close to a slick tire as you can get without compromising all wet performance. There are tires that are more "barely legal" but there aren't many.
The reason they're so widely offered on performance cars is that they are basically cheater tires. They're street legal and grip like hell, but they also cost a lot, make a lot of noise, wear incredibly quickly, and can't be used in cold temperatures. I'm not aware of a single car sold with them as standard equipment which doesn't also offer a less insane tire as an add-on.
Basically they're used so automakers can get good numbers, no one in their right mind actually daily drives these tires. The PS4S used in the original test is generally regarded as one of the best tires for a daily driven performance car.
They are included only on track-oriented models of sports cars. I don't know of more aggressive track tires included on any cars. Michelin itself calls them "track tires" and rates them 4/10 for comfort (and since Teslas can go on tracks for just a few minutes, buying them makes little sense for Tesla owners).
They even come stock from the manufacturer on many like the Porsche 911.
My fancy Ford Focus came with the PS Cup 2's from the factory. You don't need to buy a Porsche to get barely street legal tires!
From this article https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod..., linked elsewhere in the thread, it seems as if the jaguar was using track tires while the Tesla came in with standard equipment the first time. Upgrading the Tesla's brakes and tires seems like it was done to bring it into line with what other cars were using.
Randy Pobst is a badass. It was smart of Telsa to hire him to assist with tuning the Model3. On top of his long racing career, he's had extensive seat time at Streets of Willow in probably every sporty car made over the past decade due to his affiliation with Motor Trend.
I'm not sure there's another person on the planet better qualified for the job.
I'm not sure there's another person on the planet better qualified for the job.
Randy Pobst's car collection is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8teV5nuEEI
I love his motor trend track reviews. Definitely a badass.
Interesting question is of course for how long Model 3 can drive in the track mode. Cars they compare it to can drive on track for the duration of the race/track day. As far as I understand Tesla can drive like this only for few laps?
I've seen three Model 3's at the track at this point - none of them modified. They appear to run just fine without overheating their batteries. The biggest issue is in the brakes. The Model 3 is a heavy, powerful car which has insufficient rotor surface area to dissipate the large amounts of braking heat generated. Of the three that I'm familiar with, all three ended their track day early because of brake pads crumbling due to excessive heat. Better pads would last a lot longer, but there's still not enough rotor for the size and weight. This Performance Tesla had better have a bigger brake setup.
The range on track isn't as awful as I thought. It seems to use charge at about 4x the indicated rate (100 mi range remaining indicated means about 25 miles actual range left), so the 300mi version of that car is good for about 75 track miles. Not bad at all, compared to a tank of gas in a sporty car.
The range on track isn't as awful as I thought. It seems to use charge at about 4x the indicated rate (100 mi range remaining indicated means about 25 miles actual range left), so the 300mi version of that car is good for about 75 track miles. Not bad at all, compared to a tank of gas in a sporty car.
The cooling down time is usually only 15 minutes though, especially if you can plug into power and use the active cooling at full blast (would require software modification).
Doesn't matter. You think the people who buy Ferraris race them around the track? Most of them sit in garages and get driven to the golf club.
But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k. Kids aren't dreaming of owning Ferraris now, they're dreaming of owning Teslas.
But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k. Kids aren't dreaming of owning Ferraris now, they're dreaming of owning Teslas.
>But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k
That's been true for awhile, most Ferraris aren't as fast as their price implies. They're prestige items; if you just want cheap performance you get a corvette
That's been true for awhile, most Ferraris aren't as fast as their price implies. They're prestige items; if you just want cheap performance you get a corvette
In other words, kids are having nightmares.
Most gasoline cars will get pretty low on gas with a full day on the track. I track and usually end up topping up some after lunch. Most tracks have gas there, and charge like $6-8/gal.
Often with Tesla, year people leave at lunch to go to the nearest supercharger. If tracks added some fast DC chargers, it would be a nice boost.
Often with Tesla, year people leave at lunch to go to the nearest supercharger. If tracks added some fast DC chargers, it would be a nice boost.
Better article: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod...
It seems that they use all tricks available, including cooling the engines and batteries.
It's impressive nevertheless.
It's impressive nevertheless.
I find it interesting they tuned it to the driver's preferences. I wonder how they translate to other driver's preferences. I recall a story about electronic stethoscopes. They didn't have the same artifacts as the mechanical ones, so doctors didn't like it. Designers then added back in the artifacts artificially and had better acceptance. I wonder how much of the Tesla's tuning was in reality a de-tune to match the driver's preferences.
They tuned it to the preference of a professional driver, who has also driven probably every sporty car made in the past decade on that track. So it's not like his preferences are arbitrary, they are the result of a huge amount of experience. And clearly his expertise is paying off, as the lap times have improved considerably.
I also don't think that preference is the right word to use. Cars have unique characteristics which need to be leveraged differently to maximize performance. A Mustang GT, a 911 Turbo S, and a Audi TT-RS are going to have different handling characteristics by virtue of their design.
Since the Model3 is so unique, adapting characteristics of, say, a BMW M3 or an Audi RS3 to a Model3 might not yield the best results. Which is probably what the original engineers did.
I also don't think that preference is the right word to use. Cars have unique characteristics which need to be leveraged differently to maximize performance. A Mustang GT, a 911 Turbo S, and a Audi TT-RS are going to have different handling characteristics by virtue of their design.
Since the Model3 is so unique, adapting characteristics of, say, a BMW M3 or an Audi RS3 to a Model3 might not yield the best results. Which is probably what the original engineers did.
In reality, every car maker does this.
Ferrari and Lamborghini has test drivers, usually pro racing car drivers that went into private practice or on commission during their off seasons, and they tune the cars to what the test drivers want.
There is no other way to do it. Do you imagine that there's a non-human standard that car makers calibrate to? These cars are meant to be driven by humans, so they tune it to fit one, or a small team of test drivers. There's literally no other way to do it. You take the car out on the road, and get the test driver to talk to the engineers, and they tune it, one small bit at a time, until you get the feel and times that the company is shooting for.
The fact that Tesla has started realizing this means the company is maturing.
Ferrari and Lamborghini has test drivers, usually pro racing car drivers that went into private practice or on commission during their off seasons, and they tune the cars to what the test drivers want.
There is no other way to do it. Do you imagine that there's a non-human standard that car makers calibrate to? These cars are meant to be driven by humans, so they tune it to fit one, or a small team of test drivers. There's literally no other way to do it. You take the car out on the road, and get the test driver to talk to the engineers, and they tune it, one small bit at a time, until you get the feel and times that the company is shooting for.
The fact that Tesla has started realizing this means the company is maturing.
Race drivers have extremely fine senses for how the car is handling, and what makes it handle. While there is a degree of preference for the most part engineers use professional drivers as more of a highly refined sensor to tell them how to make the car corner faster and accelerate quicker.
There's a famous anecdote by Indy champion Rick Mears[1] who could correct the car's 'stagger', the (small) air pressure difference in each tire, just by driving it in precisely the right way to heat up a single tire by a few degrees.
TLDR; drivers are precision instrumentation coupled with deep domain knowledge.
[1] https://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx
There's a famous anecdote by Indy champion Rick Mears[1] who could correct the car's 'stagger', the (small) air pressure difference in each tire, just by driving it in precisely the right way to heat up a single tire by a few degrees.
TLDR; drivers are precision instrumentation coupled with deep domain knowledge.
[1] https://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx
I know this may seems a bit far fetched, but I find it a bit dangerous that they are performing an OTA upgrade that, according to the driver, noticeably changes the vehicle behaviour.
I do not own a Tesla, so is there a message that tells "Hey ! Your vehicle has been updated, take care".
I do not own a Tesla, so is there a message that tells "Hey ! Your vehicle has been updated, take care".
It's an extra mode, you have to manually change to it.
Funny that the headline mentions Ferrari but the article indicates that the benchmark was set down by an Alfa Romeo. I'm not a car guy but aren't Alfa's more like sedans where Ferrari's are full-on sports cars?
Alfa makes a full range of vehicles, including performance cars
> Perhaps more remarkable was that the Model 3 Performance’s new record in the Willow Springs Streets actually ended up beating one of Motor Trend‘s Best Driver’s Car winners in the past — the 2011 Ferrari 458 Italia, which completed the course in 1:22.30.
This is the (last gen) 458: http://www.mansory.com/files/media/mansory/sliders/ferrari-4...
And this is Ferrari's current mid-engine car, the 488: https://file.kbb.com/kbb/vehicleimage/housenew/480x360/2016/...
I'm impressed that the model 3 can hang with those.
This is the (last gen) 458: http://www.mansory.com/files/media/mansory/sliders/ferrari-4...
And this is Ferrari's current mid-engine car, the 488: https://file.kbb.com/kbb/vehicleimage/housenew/480x360/2016/...
I'm impressed that the model 3 can hang with those.
The Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio mentioned in the article is a sports sedan, in the likes of BMW M3 and C-Class AMG. It packs a three liter V6 capable of producing 510 bhp, and a top speed of 307km (192 mph).
I wonder how many straights there are on this track, and what its times are like on the N ring and other larger circuits