Ask HN: What to do when co-workers don't aspire beyond getting their paychecks?
I have a really comfortable web development job, albeit not very exciting, at a medium sized software company. That's why, like most people who probably read this and similar sites, I try to evolve professionally in my free time - read technical books, blogs, pick up languages, etc. I consider myself good at my job, and average compared to the industry. I constantly run into articles where people praise their co-workers, regale on how exciting their job is and how much they learn every day...
I find that almost everyone I work with (company of +50 people) just comes to work to punch a ticket, go home, repeat. This is not an "old" company (avg. age <35), yet people are satisfied with what they picked up so far, and don't feel the need to grow as a professional. When I mention things like github, Erlang or HN, for example, I get vague stares - nobody's heard of them. I understand people have families and non-work related hobbies (I do too - a lot), but for me coming to work just to pass 8-10 daily hours in closing bugs, adding features and resolving tickets is just dull. Yeah, I get it, that's what work is all about.
Don't get me wrong - these guys are good in what they do (mostly C/C++ Devs), but I've got nothing to learn from them, nothing interesting to chat about (I don't consider diaper changing talks exciting) and I keep fighting through the day to make work interesting by coming up with new solutions to old problems (a cliché, I know, but this is really what I do). Even my team members/boss who do web-development aren't different than the rest (a bit worse, actually).
On the plus side, the salary and benefits where I work are great. I have a baby on the way and an unemployed wife, so I can't really afford to be cavalier on job search at the moment. Maybe I'm just selling out, and this is definitely a vent post, but does anyone here feels the same at their current job, and if so - what do you do?
Also, I live and work outside the US, if it makes a difference.
24 comments
I have been in your situation many times and have felt the same way; welcome to the rest of the world.
Face it, those of us who are uncomfortable with the status quo and want more than the masses are outliers. This is a good thing! Here's what has worked for me...
Rising out of the ordinary and getting ahead is all about demand, not supply.
Supply: You can read all the blogs you want, read technical books, and study new languages and so what? You are supplying yourself with things that may or may not make any difference and no one else cares.
Demand: Find out what needs are not being met at your company. You can easily do this all the time without even being noticed, "under the radar" as they say. (You don't have to go to your boss looking for something.) They are desperate needs not being met everywhere; all you have to do is look. It may be a user, a customer, a way of doing business. Then fill that need. It's that simple. You will force yourself to learn whatever you have to to get that job done. Then do it again. And again. Before you know it, people will automatically know to come to you when nothing else works.
Business is about getting things done. Learn how to do that whether it's officially sanctioned or not. You will quickly rise above the masses and your life will never be the same.
A few notes:
1. Most people won't even realize what you're doing. For those that do, most will approve. For those that don't approve, ignore them.
2. With this approach, you will optimize your learning. You will learn what is needed, not what you think is cool.
3. You will become much more valuable for 2 reasons: you will expand your skill set and you will convert yourself from a doer to an achiever. The difference is subtle but huge.
Face it, those of us who are uncomfortable with the status quo and want more than the masses are outliers. This is a good thing! Here's what has worked for me...
Rising out of the ordinary and getting ahead is all about demand, not supply.
Supply: You can read all the blogs you want, read technical books, and study new languages and so what? You are supplying yourself with things that may or may not make any difference and no one else cares.
Demand: Find out what needs are not being met at your company. You can easily do this all the time without even being noticed, "under the radar" as they say. (You don't have to go to your boss looking for something.) They are desperate needs not being met everywhere; all you have to do is look. It may be a user, a customer, a way of doing business. Then fill that need. It's that simple. You will force yourself to learn whatever you have to to get that job done. Then do it again. And again. Before you know it, people will automatically know to come to you when nothing else works.
Business is about getting things done. Learn how to do that whether it's officially sanctioned or not. You will quickly rise above the masses and your life will never be the same.
A few notes:
1. Most people won't even realize what you're doing. For those that do, most will approve. For those that don't approve, ignore them.
2. With this approach, you will optimize your learning. You will learn what is needed, not what you think is cool.
3. You will become much more valuable for 2 reasons: you will expand your skill set and you will convert yourself from a doer to an achiever. The difference is subtle but huge.
Absolutely great advice here. Except for one problem:
"Before you know it, people will automatically know to come to you when nothing else works."
And then what? Ask for a raise? In the environment he is describing, it is likely his extra effort will not go unnoticed, but rather, unrewarded. What's worse, this extra effort may even become expected of him, without his receiving any additional compensation besides making his boss look good.
While I do find great satisfaction in making myself indispensable and particularly useful, and in the whole process of learning and implementing new things, I also find extreme irritation if it only works to set a new standard for what's expected of me. That's just my personal experience and personality. Perhaps there are more altruistic types that enjoy feeling like a more efficient cog, but for me, it sucks to feel like a cog at all.
That's not to say all is lost. Certainly being an achiever and an innovator are awesome qualities. Think of your current job as a framework to discover and deploy these things. I neglected to do this at my last job, but keep a list of all of the projects you took the initiative on, what new skills you had to acquire to achieve them, and the net benefit to the company. Myself, I always figured I'd remember all the awesome additional effort / personal touches I put on things, but I didn't, and for me, interview season is right around the corner.
Bottom line, if you're not progressing and learning from your coworkers on a regular basis, it's time to look for new options. In the meantime, give your best effort and take note of your triumphs.
"Before you know it, people will automatically know to come to you when nothing else works."
And then what? Ask for a raise? In the environment he is describing, it is likely his extra effort will not go unnoticed, but rather, unrewarded. What's worse, this extra effort may even become expected of him, without his receiving any additional compensation besides making his boss look good.
While I do find great satisfaction in making myself indispensable and particularly useful, and in the whole process of learning and implementing new things, I also find extreme irritation if it only works to set a new standard for what's expected of me. That's just my personal experience and personality. Perhaps there are more altruistic types that enjoy feeling like a more efficient cog, but for me, it sucks to feel like a cog at all.
That's not to say all is lost. Certainly being an achiever and an innovator are awesome qualities. Think of your current job as a framework to discover and deploy these things. I neglected to do this at my last job, but keep a list of all of the projects you took the initiative on, what new skills you had to acquire to achieve them, and the net benefit to the company. Myself, I always figured I'd remember all the awesome additional effort / personal touches I put on things, but I didn't, and for me, interview season is right around the corner.
Bottom line, if you're not progressing and learning from your coworkers on a regular basis, it's time to look for new options. In the meantime, give your best effort and take note of your triumphs.
You are concerned that "The reward for good work is more work"?
I must respectfully beg to differ. First, it may come with time rather than immediately, but such things often are the path to raises and promotions. Nothing in his original post would indicate it was not so at his company.
Now, if he really feels he has hit a ceiling at his company, that for whatever reason (politics, no room to move up, etc, etc) he really cannot get a raise or promotion there then he may want to think about leaving. But if he leaves just because most of his coworkers are 9-5 dayjob types then he is likely to be disappointed to find that it is the same in most other places.
If he really wants to be challenged by his coworkers and his environment is bothering him, then he needs to leave but he needs to look in very specific places to find that type of environment. He should look at start ups or research labs that are on the bleeding edge.
Otherwise, he should look to himself to find his own challenges and grow in his own ways, hopefully with a community outside of work to help him do that.
I must respectfully beg to differ. First, it may come with time rather than immediately, but such things often are the path to raises and promotions. Nothing in his original post would indicate it was not so at his company.
Now, if he really feels he has hit a ceiling at his company, that for whatever reason (politics, no room to move up, etc, etc) he really cannot get a raise or promotion there then he may want to think about leaving. But if he leaves just because most of his coworkers are 9-5 dayjob types then he is likely to be disappointed to find that it is the same in most other places.
If he really wants to be challenged by his coworkers and his environment is bothering him, then he needs to leave but he needs to look in very specific places to find that type of environment. He should look at start ups or research labs that are on the bleeding edge.
Otherwise, he should look to himself to find his own challenges and grow in his own ways, hopefully with a community outside of work to help him do that.
I agree with you and must add that if someone truly enjoys their job, more work is not an issue. Often, an employee that enjoys their job (truly enjoys it not merely saying they do) will welcome more work as long as it continues to challenge them and test their limits. If you did something mundane such as answering technical support telephone calls all day, for example, and you found that you enjoyed it, you might push yourself to answer as many calls per day as possible. The higher your numbers, the greater your pride in your work. On the other hand, if you only received two telephone calls per hour and spend the remainder of your time sitting around, every telephone call that arrived would interrupt your 'waste of time', and you would begin to hate it. Sometimes more work can be a blessing.
"Before you know it, people will automatically know to come to you when nothing else works."
That in itself IS the reward.
That in itself IS the reward.
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What are some of the projects that you built using that method? Did you build anything that you later spun off into a better job or a side business?
I'm interested, not doubting.
I'm interested, not doubting.
Just a few off the top of my head:
1. As part of the research for requirements for a new inventory package, I noticed that every pallet was counted by 3 different people and the lowest count was recorded. I worked with plant supervisors to fix the procedures. Management then realized that there was now no need for new million dollar software. They rewarded my effort and concern for the company with lots of great project work and money. Lesson: Look for the obvious first.
2. A user asked me to help solve her forecasting problem. The two of us sat down and designed the software to do it. I realized there was a parallel effort to do the same thing in another division (with an expensive purchased package), so I made my software work for both divisions. It took 3 weeks to write and people were very grateful. I was employee of the month and got a nice bonus. Lesson: Sometimes little things can solve big problems.
3. I noticed that warehouse pickers were bending and climbing ladders a lot, so I suggested modifying our inventory system to place the most popular items in bins between the knees and shoulders. The change took one week and made us 10% more efficient (a lot of money after a few months). I would have never thought of it if I hadn't been walking around, trying to understand how my software was being used. Lesson: Give yourself the chance to find opportunities.
Did you build anything that you later spun off into a better job or a side business?
Yes. Everything I learned using these methods went into 2 businesses: a small business software package and a consulting practice. If I hadn't stretched myself, who knows what cubicle I'd be sitting in today.
1. As part of the research for requirements for a new inventory package, I noticed that every pallet was counted by 3 different people and the lowest count was recorded. I worked with plant supervisors to fix the procedures. Management then realized that there was now no need for new million dollar software. They rewarded my effort and concern for the company with lots of great project work and money. Lesson: Look for the obvious first.
2. A user asked me to help solve her forecasting problem. The two of us sat down and designed the software to do it. I realized there was a parallel effort to do the same thing in another division (with an expensive purchased package), so I made my software work for both divisions. It took 3 weeks to write and people were very grateful. I was employee of the month and got a nice bonus. Lesson: Sometimes little things can solve big problems.
3. I noticed that warehouse pickers were bending and climbing ladders a lot, so I suggested modifying our inventory system to place the most popular items in bins between the knees and shoulders. The change took one week and made us 10% more efficient (a lot of money after a few months). I would have never thought of it if I hadn't been walking around, trying to understand how my software was being used. Lesson: Give yourself the chance to find opportunities.
Did you build anything that you later spun off into a better job or a side business?
Yes. Everything I learned using these methods went into 2 businesses: a small business software package and a consulting practice. If I hadn't stretched myself, who knows what cubicle I'd be sitting in today.
This is one my favorite posts I've ever read on HN. Thanks for sharing it. :)
Thank you, dgallagher. I was having a crappy morning slogging through a lot of low level stuff, so I thought I'd take a break and drop by hn to see what was going on. Boy am I glad I did. Your comment made my day.
Thanks a lot for sharing those. I have found myself in the same position recently. And in order to overcome boredom, I started looking for broken things to fix in the area that I work in. I have been able to find a manual data entry process that goes into our Finance database. Talk about obvious!
I put a proposal together to the management with the $$$ impact ( and it comes to a million dollars!). The amount just broke down all barriers for me. Nobody questions why I am doing this now. I have full liberty on how to execute this. I even got another developer dedicated to work on the project with me.
This is going to be completed for testing in another 3 weeks. We will see how this turns out.
I totally agree with edw519's suggestions and examples. Your initiative will be rewarded.
I put a proposal together to the management with the $$$ impact ( and it comes to a million dollars!). The amount just broke down all barriers for me. Nobody questions why I am doing this now. I have full liberty on how to execute this. I even got another developer dedicated to work on the project with me.
This is going to be completed for testing in another 3 weeks. We will see how this turns out.
I totally agree with edw519's suggestions and examples. Your initiative will be rewarded.
this is so true.. just try to find projects within the company you work for that are (1) within you reach and (2) have the greatest impact. by this you'll learn, trive, supprise, and get great ideas for future businesses of you own.
It is only fitting that edw519 has now been member of HN for 1337 days! <wink>
This may be the best advice I've read today.
The thing is, how do you get the right people to notice when you fix things like that which really are a problem?
I have a real problem doing this, it feels like so much boasting.
But on the other hand, it does get discouraging if there is no recognition for when you go above and beyond, when you just know that the extra effort you put in is a big reason things are not falling apart.
The thing is, how do you get the right people to notice when you fix things like that which really are a problem?
I have a real problem doing this, it feels like so much boasting.
But on the other hand, it does get discouraging if there is no recognition for when you go above and beyond, when you just know that the extra effort you put in is a big reason things are not falling apart.
Software engineering, just like other jobs and vocations, are just that to most people: jobs. You will always have some small minority of people that are going out of their way to attend user groups, seek out communities and contribute, but the majority are just looking to take home a paycheck so they can do other things. I'm sure you've encountered this when in school and I don't think this is any different in the US.
Stop trying to change, or more importantly, judge, people who just don't care. If it's just a job to them, that's fine. Changing diapers is much more immediate to them then github.
If you feel stifled, seek out user groups in your area, spend more time learning on your own and stay active online. Not much else you can do.
Stop trying to change, or more importantly, judge, people who just don't care. If it's just a job to them, that's fine. Changing diapers is much more immediate to them then github.
If you feel stifled, seek out user groups in your area, spend more time learning on your own and stay active online. Not much else you can do.
I appreciate the candor. If my post suggested that I'm judging people, it was not my intention. I respect people's choices and appreciate that others have priorities different than my own. My goal was to seek ideas as for coping with my need to improve myself, not push others to fall in line. Your idea of local user groups is good, and I'll probably look into it.
Very well said. Most developpers I know consider it a day job, they do it, generally well, collect their money and get on with their lives.
I suspect most people on this board, most certainly including myself, are not like that. But we are the minority and I have nothing against the majority that wants to do that.
As to practical suggestions for the OP to keep growing: Find a community of people like you. My expertise is in SQL and I used to attend the local user group meetings (it now conflicts with my night classes in grad school). I still both write for and read sites like www.sqlservercentral.com where I can participate in the community in a virtual sense at least.
Also, you may want to consider going back to grad school, if your schedule permits it. It gives you a ready made community of smart people pursuing things at least vaguely in your field. This is more important than the classes or the piece of paper at the end, but that piece of paper can make a nice addition the next time you are in the job market.
I suspect most people on this board, most certainly including myself, are not like that. But we are the minority and I have nothing against the majority that wants to do that.
As to practical suggestions for the OP to keep growing: Find a community of people like you. My expertise is in SQL and I used to attend the local user group meetings (it now conflicts with my night classes in grad school). I still both write for and read sites like www.sqlservercentral.com where I can participate in the community in a virtual sense at least.
Also, you may want to consider going back to grad school, if your schedule permits it. It gives you a ready made community of smart people pursuing things at least vaguely in your field. This is more important than the classes or the piece of paper at the end, but that piece of paper can make a nice addition the next time you are in the job market.
You might want to try it from the other side for a while. It can actually be quite nice to have a job that does nothing other than provide money to pursue your true passions.
For most of my 20's, my life revolved entirely around rock climbing. 4 nights a week in the gym, and a roadtrip every weekend. Vacation time saved up (and exceeded) for trips to Europe, Asia and the Desert Southwest in search of good rock and good times. My friends were all doing the same thing, and those were actually some of the best years of my life.
Now, I'd deeply into building software products to maximize my free time. Not surprisingly, the skills I'm using today are the ones I picked up during those years of paying the bills. The outside pursuits are still a major part of my life (I'm typing this from the climbing mecca of Kalymnos, Greece), but now I have several months a year to pursue them instead of just a few weeks.
So maybe you should take another look at those guys. They just might be leading interesting lives while you're not looking.
For most of my 20's, my life revolved entirely around rock climbing. 4 nights a week in the gym, and a roadtrip every weekend. Vacation time saved up (and exceeded) for trips to Europe, Asia and the Desert Southwest in search of good rock and good times. My friends were all doing the same thing, and those were actually some of the best years of my life.
Now, I'd deeply into building software products to maximize my free time. Not surprisingly, the skills I'm using today are the ones I picked up during those years of paying the bills. The outside pursuits are still a major part of my life (I'm typing this from the climbing mecca of Kalymnos, Greece), but now I have several months a year to pursue them instead of just a few weeks.
So maybe you should take another look at those guys. They just might be leading interesting lives while you're not looking.
I can related to that experience. For a significant part of my professional life, my day job was there to provide a paycheck to feed my addiction/passion to the martial arts. At 5 o clock I was out the door and for the next 3 hours it would be martial arts training and conditioning. I would train and compete and travel for competition. Work was just work and a paycheck so I could do what I really wanted. Although I did enjoy software development, it was strictly only at work.
At the time I would look at people who only had their career and career related activities and friends to be missing out on more interesting pursuits.
At the time I would look at people who only had their career and career related activities and friends to be missing out on more interesting pursuits.
Great post. Not everyone's passion is profitable, but that doesn't make it less worthwhile. Of course, there are people not pursuing passions at all, so this post still has value.
Either you are passionate and keen on learning or not. I don't believe the mentioned coworkers wear one mask at work and another at home.
Not to worry, diaper change discussions will soon enough turn from quite boring to utterly fascinating, believe me. (Then they go back to boring again.)
Meanwhile, get all the sleep you can (with that kid on the way), do NOT start a startup now (with a kid on the way), but start job hunting on the side for something you like better.
Meanwhile, get all the sleep you can (with that kid on the way), do NOT start a startup now (with a kid on the way), but start job hunting on the side for something you like better.
I feel you. I actually have two kids now and am just getting back into the side-project thing. Others are right. Just plan on not getting much done for the next 4-6 months. Seriously. Focus on your family.
As to the coworker issue, realize that you'll be having those "diaper-changing" discussions soon enough. It's actually quite refreshing.
As to self-betterment I'm in TOTAL agreement. I don't typically stay with a company where I'm not challenged intellectually. There are two things that facter into my place to work:
* Quality of Life * Professional Development
Salary is really a non issue at this point. I've taken positions where I've made less or lateral moves just because of an increase in quality of life and working with smart people. Unfortunately, now is not the time for you to be making that move. Focus on your family. When your spawn is about 6 months, most of the big issues (like possible cholic and weird sleep patterns) will have passed. You'll have to deal with teething but each iteration gets easier for the kid.
If you plan on having a second kid, talk with your wife about planning that around your entreprenureal goals. In our case we ended up having our second when our first was 21 months old. Now that he's 6 months old, I actually have free time again to work on side projects after hours. Just realize that unless you have local family support, two young children are very difficult for one person to manage.
As to the coworker issue, realize that you'll be having those "diaper-changing" discussions soon enough. It's actually quite refreshing.
As to self-betterment I'm in TOTAL agreement. I don't typically stay with a company where I'm not challenged intellectually. There are two things that facter into my place to work:
* Quality of Life * Professional Development
Salary is really a non issue at this point. I've taken positions where I've made less or lateral moves just because of an increase in quality of life and working with smart people. Unfortunately, now is not the time for you to be making that move. Focus on your family. When your spawn is about 6 months, most of the big issues (like possible cholic and weird sleep patterns) will have passed. You'll have to deal with teething but each iteration gets easier for the kid.
If you plan on having a second kid, talk with your wife about planning that around your entreprenureal goals. In our case we ended up having our second when our first was 21 months old. Now that he's 6 months old, I actually have free time again to work on side projects after hours. Just realize that unless you have local family support, two young children are very difficult for one person to manage.
It's hard for non-entrepreneurial types to understand, but some people are just satisfied with having a huge disconnect with their work and life.
For a long time, it upset me to see my intelligent friends do this. They couldn't wait to get out of college, get a job with a big company, put in their workweek, and that's that. No desire to do a startup, and learned what they needed for the job.
It's just what it is, there's no reason to fight it, just understand that sometimes having that huge disconnect between work and life is optimal for them.
For a long time, it upset me to see my intelligent friends do this. They couldn't wait to get out of college, get a job with a big company, put in their workweek, and that's that. No desire to do a startup, and learned what they needed for the job.
It's just what it is, there's no reason to fight it, just understand that sometimes having that huge disconnect between work and life is optimal for them.
"but some people are just satisfied with having a huge disconnect with their work and life."
While true, I think "disconnect" has unnecessarily negative connotations. You could equally say, "some people are happy when work doesn't dominate their whole life." Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on what you want out of life and what you want out of your work.
While true, I think "disconnect" has unnecessarily negative connotations. You could equally say, "some people are happy when work doesn't dominate their whole life." Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on what you want out of life and what you want out of your work.
Hi, I was in your situation recently. I felt I was not getting exposure to exciting technology or projects. I often learn things in my spare time, but wanted to apply it on the job. I spoke to my manager and now I'm working on some great new projects, using great new technologies and learning a lot more.
The point I'm trying to make is, speak to your boss and explain how you feel. They can try to change things to suit how you would like to work.
Ultimately I'd like to be working for a start up, but deep down I know I'd be frustrated unless it was my own start up - so I plan to work, build up money from the job (while bootstrapping ideas / learning new tech / reading great info) then launch my own startup in a coworking hub where I can speak with like minded people daily.
The point I'm trying to make is, speak to your boss and explain how you feel. They can try to change things to suit how you would like to work.
Ultimately I'd like to be working for a start up, but deep down I know I'd be frustrated unless it was my own start up - so I plan to work, build up money from the job (while bootstrapping ideas / learning new tech / reading great info) then launch my own startup in a coworking hub where I can speak with like minded people daily.
I was in a similar position up until a few months ago. It wasn't lack of interest on part of other devs, quite the opposite: everyone was just too eager to incorporate new things into the codebase and prove their ideas were the best. It was almost like the wild wild west where anybody could push anything to the codebase and the inexperienced management was excited at the prospect of a cutting edge product.
What happened was quite the opposite: the codebase was very inconsistent and there were lots of parts nobody understood. All these conflicts and lack of integration also lead to a lot of bugs which management thought were just part of software engineering. Micromanagement was also rampant and caused significant mental stress.
What I am trying to get across is that having overly enthusiastic co-workers is not always a good thing either (the grass is always greener on the other side.) Don't listen too much to what other people are saying about their jobs. Try to figure out what you are missing (I was missing the need to be part of a community and do innovative stuff) and try to find a way to get that (I got involved in an open-source project where I found I could contribute and be part of the community and do good things.) If you do good things long enough, you will be noticed and eventually land one of those rare jobs where you are paid to do what you love (gotta put in the wood before you can get heat from the fire)
What happened was quite the opposite: the codebase was very inconsistent and there were lots of parts nobody understood. All these conflicts and lack of integration also lead to a lot of bugs which management thought were just part of software engineering. Micromanagement was also rampant and caused significant mental stress.
What I am trying to get across is that having overly enthusiastic co-workers is not always a good thing either (the grass is always greener on the other side.) Don't listen too much to what other people are saying about their jobs. Try to figure out what you are missing (I was missing the need to be part of a community and do innovative stuff) and try to find a way to get that (I got involved in an open-source project where I found I could contribute and be part of the community and do good things.) If you do good things long enough, you will be noticed and eventually land one of those rare jobs where you are paid to do what you love (gotta put in the wood before you can get heat from the fire)
John Kotter wrote a book called Leading Change -- it's all about getting people to break out of the status quo one step at a time.
You can find the book here: http://www.amazon.com/Leading-Change-John-P-Kotter/dp/087584...
And he has a blog here: http://blogs.hbr.org/kotter/
You can find the book here: http://www.amazon.com/Leading-Change-John-P-Kotter/dp/087584...
And he has a blog here: http://blogs.hbr.org/kotter/
>Maybe I'm just selling out, and this is definitely a vent post, but does anyone here feels the same at their current job, and if so - what do you do?
I did... 12 days ago.
I had numerous discussions with my manager (even a few partners) over 6 months who ignored them, under the fear that the CTO would attempt to stick me in another group (which would cause some partners to raise hell), because any other group would welcome me with open arms. Knowing this, and that I probably had no real way out of the group I was in, I did the only thing that made sense to me:
I quit.
I would not recommend this course of action considering your other obligations, but ultimately, it's probably the solution that will work best for you. You need to find people who are passionate about their work as you are, as they're the group you'll best be happy working with. The only difference is you should ensure for a smooth transition with no breaks in income, instead of the route I took (which I'll admit, was a dick move at the time).
I did... 12 days ago.
I had numerous discussions with my manager (even a few partners) over 6 months who ignored them, under the fear that the CTO would attempt to stick me in another group (which would cause some partners to raise hell), because any other group would welcome me with open arms. Knowing this, and that I probably had no real way out of the group I was in, I did the only thing that made sense to me:
I quit.
I would not recommend this course of action considering your other obligations, but ultimately, it's probably the solution that will work best for you. You need to find people who are passionate about their work as you are, as they're the group you'll best be happy working with. The only difference is you should ensure for a smooth transition with no breaks in income, instead of the route I took (which I'll admit, was a dick move at the time).
Uninterested coworkers seems to be the standard 90% of the time where I go. An even worse situation I've found is having an outside consultant with supreme confidence come in and start "educating" you, telling you how things should be done, but unable/unwilling/uninterested to defend his assertions when you show him simple examples proving him incorrect....and he seems to be totally incapable of recognizing his shortcomings.
Add to this, no knowledge whatsoever of sites like hacker news, stackoverflow, etc, and a home development machine that is too slow to run Visual Studio. But of course, the air of confidence (due to his own ignorance) earns him immediate respect from management. Now that is a depressing situation.
Knowledge of the existence of stackoverflow is now my ultimate litmus test, I try to sneak it into the conversation as soon as possible - if the person has never heard of it, that's a pretty good indicator of how much of the say is hot air.
Add to this, no knowledge whatsoever of sites like hacker news, stackoverflow, etc, and a home development machine that is too slow to run Visual Studio. But of course, the air of confidence (due to his own ignorance) earns him immediate respect from management. Now that is a depressing situation.
Knowledge of the existence of stackoverflow is now my ultimate litmus test, I try to sneak it into the conversation as soon as possible - if the person has never heard of it, that's a pretty good indicator of how much of the say is hot air.
Not sure I agree with the stackoverflow test. Good knowledge & practices picked up before and during stackoverflow's existence aren't invalidated by not following certain online communities or the Atwood train. The test is probably more applicable if they are younger and/or work in a popular space.
Here's my half-assed attempts at formatting: for readability
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I have a really comfortable web development job, albeit not very exciting, at a medium sized software company. That's why, like most people who probably read this and similar sites, I try to evolve professionally in my free time - read technical books, blogs, pick up languages, etc.
I consider myself good at my job, and average compared to the industry. I constantly run into articles where people praise their co-workers, regale on how exciting their job is and how much they learn every day... I find that almost everyone I work with (company of +50 people) just comes to work to punch a ticket, go home, repeat. This is not an "old" company (avg. age <35), yet people are satisfied with what they picked up so far, and don't feel the need to grow as a professional.
When I mention things like github, Erlang or HN, for example, I get vague stares - nobody's heard of them. I understand people have families and non-work related hobbies (I do too - a lot), but for me coming to work just to pass 8-10 daily hours in closing bugs, adding features and resolving tickets is just dull.
Yeah, I get it, that's what work is all about. Don't get me wrong - these guys are good in what they do (mostly C/C++ Devs), but I've got nothing to learn from them, nothing interesting to chat about (I don't consider diaper changing talks exciting) and I keep fighting through the day to make work interesting by coming up with new solutions to old problems (a cliché, I know, but this is really what I do). Even my team members/boss who do web-development aren't different than the rest (a bit worse, actually). On the plus side, the salary and benefits where I work are great.
I have a baby on the way and an unemployed wife, so I can't really afford to be cavalier on job search at the moment.
Maybe I'm just selling out, and this is definitely a vent post, but does anyone here feels the same at their current job, and if so - what do you do?
Also, I live and work outside the US, if it makes a difference.
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I have a really comfortable web development job, albeit not very exciting, at a medium sized software company. That's why, like most people who probably read this and similar sites, I try to evolve professionally in my free time - read technical books, blogs, pick up languages, etc.
I consider myself good at my job, and average compared to the industry. I constantly run into articles where people praise their co-workers, regale on how exciting their job is and how much they learn every day... I find that almost everyone I work with (company of +50 people) just comes to work to punch a ticket, go home, repeat. This is not an "old" company (avg. age <35), yet people are satisfied with what they picked up so far, and don't feel the need to grow as a professional.
When I mention things like github, Erlang or HN, for example, I get vague stares - nobody's heard of them. I understand people have families and non-work related hobbies (I do too - a lot), but for me coming to work just to pass 8-10 daily hours in closing bugs, adding features and resolving tickets is just dull.
Yeah, I get it, that's what work is all about. Don't get me wrong - these guys are good in what they do (mostly C/C++ Devs), but I've got nothing to learn from them, nothing interesting to chat about (I don't consider diaper changing talks exciting) and I keep fighting through the day to make work interesting by coming up with new solutions to old problems (a cliché, I know, but this is really what I do). Even my team members/boss who do web-development aren't different than the rest (a bit worse, actually). On the plus side, the salary and benefits where I work are great.
I have a baby on the way and an unemployed wife, so I can't really afford to be cavalier on job search at the moment.
Maybe I'm just selling out, and this is definitely a vent post, but does anyone here feels the same at their current job, and if so - what do you do?
Also, I live and work outside the US, if it makes a difference.
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thanks for that, it's my first post here and so I haven't toyed with the formatting specifics enough to master.
Sometimes I feel like that. I mean, after all, I am working my day job to make money as a first priority, in order to take care of myself and my life. If I were able to do what I wanted purely without a need to make money I probably wouldn't be working where I am. That's not to say it isn't often fun and engaging to work on iOS, web, and business development with a team of people who are great at it. The developers on the team all seem interested in learning more, like you, and I don't get blank stares when I mention github, but I used to get blank stares when I talked about things like the Earth's environment, physics, and the way that the world works. Gradually, with patient persistence over a few years, as I shared some good problems of why it is important through whatever appropriate opportunity it was, they began to realize. Now I don't get only blank stares and mocking smalltalk, but there are some questions that they ask me about them and I can show them things through the questions they have.
Anyway, we are a small development firm that works with design partners and other clients, we build software for them, and we have a CMS platform that we tailor to their needs too. This is a big reason why the environment at my office is different than yours (we have a team of about 8 right now). Each person has to pull his weight for things to turn out well and we each recognize it, so many of us try to get to the level of expert in our own specialties. If expertise is recognized or rewarded then it provides an incentive to for self cultivation.
If you don't mind me asking, what is the specific area of software development your group works in?
Anyway, we are a small development firm that works with design partners and other clients, we build software for them, and we have a CMS platform that we tailor to their needs too. This is a big reason why the environment at my office is different than yours (we have a team of about 8 right now). Each person has to pull his weight for things to turn out well and we each recognize it, so many of us try to get to the level of expert in our own specialties. If expertise is recognized or rewarded then it provides an incentive to for self cultivation.
If you don't mind me asking, what is the specific area of software development your group works in?
I actually do stuff that's quite similar to what you do. The specifics could be boiled down to plenty of mundane web development with ruby, python, js and mysql... like most people here :)
I'd stop looking over the fence. If they are blocking your work or career progress, then they matter, otherwise focus on your own career, goals and lifestyle requirements.
It can be hard if you don't feel engaged with your co-workers but it happens. Set your goals and areas of ownership, develop yourself to support them and start pushing to see if you can progress your career. If they aren't a good baseline to compete with, you have to make your own structure.
If you have a baby on the way pretty soon you'll be in coast mode anyhow (I mean this - if you're still working, some days you'll barely have the energy to focus on your inbox, let alone productive work)
After this stage in your life, re-assess. Maybe your work / life balance is different, maybe you'll be more risk tolerant and change jobs / roles, maybe you'll just be happy. Mostly choice, and hard work.
In regards to the after hours stuff, it's doable as well. It sounds crazy to try and launch a whole side project until you actually do it (even with a baby on board). I noticed you knocked back a suggestion to do an off hours project / startup before, don't rush to close the idea off.
To give context: professionally I put in about 47-60 hours a week depending on what's on, and I brick in every single free hour around that (as stamina and life allows) on side projects. Before I started doing that, I said it couldn't be done, and would park my ass watching TV or generally doing nothing instead.
Figure out what you want, don't measure yourself on others, and go for it. =) If it's what you have now, there's nothing wrong with that.
It can be hard if you don't feel engaged with your co-workers but it happens. Set your goals and areas of ownership, develop yourself to support them and start pushing to see if you can progress your career. If they aren't a good baseline to compete with, you have to make your own structure.
If you have a baby on the way pretty soon you'll be in coast mode anyhow (I mean this - if you're still working, some days you'll barely have the energy to focus on your inbox, let alone productive work)
After this stage in your life, re-assess. Maybe your work / life balance is different, maybe you'll be more risk tolerant and change jobs / roles, maybe you'll just be happy. Mostly choice, and hard work.
In regards to the after hours stuff, it's doable as well. It sounds crazy to try and launch a whole side project until you actually do it (even with a baby on board). I noticed you knocked back a suggestion to do an off hours project / startup before, don't rush to close the idea off.
To give context: professionally I put in about 47-60 hours a week depending on what's on, and I brick in every single free hour around that (as stamina and life allows) on side projects. Before I started doing that, I said it couldn't be done, and would park my ass watching TV or generally doing nothing instead.
Figure out what you want, don't measure yourself on others, and go for it. =) If it's what you have now, there's nothing wrong with that.
solid advice. I'm actually working on side projects all the time, just have nothing to show for it yet. thanks.
I had a similar issue - the sensation that I had nothing to "show" for all the time invested. This will kill you. It's really important to do a few things at this point:
- Catalogue what you've actually accomplished in terms of stuff created / learned / produced
- Hack it all up into "stuff I will use", "stuff I will reference" and "stuff I will archive"
- Set some hard lines and hard times against deliverables with actual boundaries / units of work - what will you finish, by what date, where does it fit, what's the next stage?
Finally, and the biggest thing for me was: if you can hardline at work, be a professional and produce lots of good stuff on a dealine (assuming you do), you can do that for yourself as well.
Sometimes (as a non-startup type guy) I found it easy to go to work, push past pain barriers, bust serious ass and make some pretty incredible stuff happen, then come home and have a completely different - lazy and shabby - attitude.
As soon as I decided to carry that attitude towards my own goals / projects, it turned a lot of stuff around. I had two or three projects that were half parked for nearly 8 months that I set completion goals for and cleaned up in about 2 months.
Felt great, and made me realise how much you can actually produce when you have a clear idea of what you want to get done.
- Catalogue what you've actually accomplished in terms of stuff created / learned / produced
- Hack it all up into "stuff I will use", "stuff I will reference" and "stuff I will archive"
- Set some hard lines and hard times against deliverables with actual boundaries / units of work - what will you finish, by what date, where does it fit, what's the next stage?
Finally, and the biggest thing for me was: if you can hardline at work, be a professional and produce lots of good stuff on a dealine (assuming you do), you can do that for yourself as well.
Sometimes (as a non-startup type guy) I found it easy to go to work, push past pain barriers, bust serious ass and make some pretty incredible stuff happen, then come home and have a completely different - lazy and shabby - attitude.
As soon as I decided to carry that attitude towards my own goals / projects, it turned a lot of stuff around. I had two or three projects that were half parked for nearly 8 months that I set completion goals for and cleaned up in about 2 months.
Felt great, and made me realise how much you can actually produce when you have a clear idea of what you want to get done.
I'm exactly like what you described in your past. When I'm at work, I am as professional as it gets - deadlines, quality code, testing and all that. However, due to the work environment, I find that at the end of the day I've used up all my positive energy and mental resources to keep myself in line and motivated.
How did you find that extra boost to bust ass in both work and personal projects (if at all)? Right it seems like see-saw between the two.
How did you find that extra boost to bust ass in both work and personal projects (if at all)? Right it seems like see-saw between the two.
I'm not quite there yet, in the process of getting there. When all I'm talking about is contract art jobs and there's no dayjob - I'm there! =)
- Mindfulness, oddly enough. I always need to stop, notice that I'm getting tired or distracted (or burning up way too much energy on something), stop, re-evaluate, and go
I notice sometimes I might just be "screwing around" on something (shuffling CSS around, painting bits of a picture that aren't critical), so I'll focus again and do something thats adding value
Especially when you're tired - its easy to futz about doing not much at all while thinking "I'm so busy and productive". It takes effort to mentally stay on task after a day at work
- Cold showers and coffee
- Being more assertive / aggressive at work. I used to burn myself out trying to do everything and anything, and spent a lot of time bashing my head against walls because someone else thought it was of value (and I didn't).
The more confident I get with my freelance jobs, the more risk I'm taking at work. Quiet happy to tell someone that an idea isn't worth pursuing and push back when I've got too much on my plate.
Also, learn to argue (in a professional manner) without feeling like shit about it. Saves a lot of hassle.
- Just doing it. It's cliche, but nothing beats this: take off your work gear, shower, change, prep, shut the fucking browser, turn off the tv, and go.
Sometimes its almost comical what I have to do to break out of habits like idling online or gaming or etc. I will sit and literally yell at myself if I have to, to get myself back on task.
Small post-its work as well, like "get back to work" or "is this really worthwhile and enjoyable?" (that one's stuck to the PS3)
- Remembering that projects are fun. I feel way better about myself after a half hour working out or four hours building time on something than watching TV all night. It turned my mood around quiet a bit too - went from being quiet sullen to very content and positive about stuff.
- Mindfulness, oddly enough. I always need to stop, notice that I'm getting tired or distracted (or burning up way too much energy on something), stop, re-evaluate, and go
I notice sometimes I might just be "screwing around" on something (shuffling CSS around, painting bits of a picture that aren't critical), so I'll focus again and do something thats adding value
Especially when you're tired - its easy to futz about doing not much at all while thinking "I'm so busy and productive". It takes effort to mentally stay on task after a day at work
- Cold showers and coffee
- Being more assertive / aggressive at work. I used to burn myself out trying to do everything and anything, and spent a lot of time bashing my head against walls because someone else thought it was of value (and I didn't).
The more confident I get with my freelance jobs, the more risk I'm taking at work. Quiet happy to tell someone that an idea isn't worth pursuing and push back when I've got too much on my plate.
Also, learn to argue (in a professional manner) without feeling like shit about it. Saves a lot of hassle.
- Just doing it. It's cliche, but nothing beats this: take off your work gear, shower, change, prep, shut the fucking browser, turn off the tv, and go.
Sometimes its almost comical what I have to do to break out of habits like idling online or gaming or etc. I will sit and literally yell at myself if I have to, to get myself back on task.
Small post-its work as well, like "get back to work" or "is this really worthwhile and enjoyable?" (that one's stuck to the PS3)
- Remembering that projects are fun. I feel way better about myself after a half hour working out or four hours building time on something than watching TV all night. It turned my mood around quiet a bit too - went from being quiet sullen to very content and positive about stuff.
Why do you need to do anything? It's their life, just live yours the way you want to and let them be.
I can't content myself to just cruise along, either, but I'd be annoyed if someone tried to change that about me. Therefore I have to show them the same respect: if they want to just cruise along and take the easy way, that's their right to do so.
I can't content myself to just cruise along, either, but I'd be annoyed if someone tried to change that about me. Therefore I have to show them the same respect: if they want to just cruise along and take the easy way, that's their right to do so.
Have you stopped to consider maybe they do keep up with technology, just not on the same niche you're on (the C/C++ comment makes me think this is true)? Or maybe that the culture in the company is to make efforts to automate your job, but not making it public (generally means that you want to have cruise control on your job, but it's so boring you're afraid to let anyone know because you might get MORE work)?
I'm being too negative though, lets say that really no one in the company is interested in going the extra mile nor staying relevant in the industry, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT! If no one some off as the "wow I can't let this employee go!", then the position is right there for you to take. Make something of it and take advantage of your situation. That being said, you're having a child soon... let us know if you still think everyone should keep up the pace after the baby is born ;)
I'm being too negative though, lets say that really no one in the company is interested in going the extra mile nor staying relevant in the industry, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT! If no one some off as the "wow I can't let this employee go!", then the position is right there for you to take. Make something of it and take advantage of your situation. That being said, you're having a child soon... let us know if you still think everyone should keep up the pace after the baby is born ;)
Probably the grass is greener on the other side. I felt like you are feeling at the moment, throughout my career. I have successfully managed to move from one environment to the desired one and onto the next desired one as the current one got sour few times and that has not helped. Now, I am taking a few years off to work on whatever I please and not be constrained by restrictions at work place. Even this isn't feeling quite right.
I'm in your boat too. I understand your frustration. But keep plugging away. Keep making connections with those of us who want to work not for money but for fulfillment (money follows passion, not the other way around).
Keep learning, growing, connecting. If you do, one day you will be doing whatever job you want to do - something you are passionate about, and your co-workers will be doing the same job for the same money.
Keep learning, growing, connecting. If you do, one day you will be doing whatever job you want to do - something you are passionate about, and your co-workers will be doing the same job for the same money.
Side project. A bonus is that you can develop a parallel resume in something that you don't do at work (which is usually the case). Think of it like diversifying your tech portfolio.
Just submitted "How to Take On a Passion Project When You Have a Job"
http://www.good.is/post/working-better-how-to-take-on-a-pass...
Just submitted "How to Take On a Passion Project When You Have a Job"
http://www.good.is/post/working-better-how-to-take-on-a-pass...
This is why you've got to work on side businesses when you're younger and don't get married too soon. By the time you've got kids, you can't really focus on other businesses. Don't worry about their own failings, just work on creating your next successes on the side.
I can agree with the young part, but not about being married or having kids. I hadn't launched any side businesses before I was married, and have started, abandoned, and launched one project since having kids.
Being married and having kids can be a benefit. I've found a greater need to manage my time and narrow my focus, being more decisive about what I'll do than dive all into it.
Before I was married, I'd go off on tangents, code for a few days, then look at the project and go meh. For me, I waste less time because my time is more precious.
Being married and having kids can be a benefit. I've found a greater need to manage my time and narrow my focus, being more decisive about what I'll do than dive all into it.
Before I was married, I'd go off on tangents, code for a few days, then look at the project and go meh. For me, I waste less time because my time is more precious.
Sounds like you're ripe to work for or perhaps, found a startup. You don't have to quit your current job to start a startup on the side or hunt for a new job.
With a kid on the way and an unemployed partner? Not really.
Highly train yourself. You will demand higher salaries and get more interesting job offers, as well as being "the poached guy" when people go elsewhere.
The issue is addressed in http://www.netmba.com/mgmt/ob/motivation/erg/
Start side project on off time un-related to work.
Zed Shaw has a good discussion of why and good videos on why at his set of blogs: http://www.zedshaw.com/essays/
Zed Shaw has a good discussion of why and good videos on why at his set of blogs: http://www.zedshaw.com/essays/
I watched the "ACL" talk the other day and it touches on work-only coding mentality a lot.