DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector (2016)(bigmessowires.com)
bigmessowires.com
DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector (2016)
http://www.bigmessowires.com/2016/06/04/db-19-resurrecting-an-obsolete-connector/
9 comments
I have been in physical product development and manufacturing for three decades. Doing business with US manufacturers has become more and more difficult over time. What you describe here is very true and only the tip of the iceberg. I have, for example, sent out 50 requests for quotes for machined components only to be utterly ignored by most of the shops I contacted. The same exercise with China results in an almost overwhelming number of quotes received almost instantly. They are open for business. Have been for a while. I, frankly, have no clue what game we are playing.
> Doing business with US manufacturers has become more and more difficult over time.
Any thoughts on why?
Any thoughts on why?
In my experience, it's a combo of issues.
US manufactures were the first to automate, so many of them are with 1st/2nd generation gear that is designed for high throughput operation and not around setup time. These machines can take several hours to change what they make.
Also, manufactures have become jaded with new customers as they are constantly asking for them to move mountains for overseas pricing. Manufactures typically have a big enough collection of frequent customers that they can use bad first customer support as a means to filter out people who will go overseas anyways after they hear the quote the manufacturer spent a fair amount of time on. If a customer is willing to pass the gauntlet of trying to contact you, they are much less likely to disappear after you give them a quote.
US manufactures were the first to automate, so many of them are with 1st/2nd generation gear that is designed for high throughput operation and not around setup time. These machines can take several hours to change what they make.
Also, manufactures have become jaded with new customers as they are constantly asking for them to move mountains for overseas pricing. Manufactures typically have a big enough collection of frequent customers that they can use bad first customer support as a means to filter out people who will go overseas anyways after they hear the quote the manufacturer spent a fair amount of time on. If a customer is willing to pass the gauntlet of trying to contact you, they are much less likely to disappear after you give them a quote.
I tried to get some waterjet cut parts about 5 years ago near Santa Barbara. The only shop I could find that could do it had no way to get the data into the 486 - yes you read right - other than hand replicating my file in his ancient CAD program.
My experience overseas is more like fire off an email with an attachment and have perfect parts a few weeks later.
I believe this is changing though. There are some awesome short run PCB assembly services in the states now for instance.
My experience overseas is more like fire off an email with an attachment and have perfect parts a few weeks later.
I believe this is changing though. There are some awesome short run PCB assembly services in the states now for instance.
Now that the old equipment is at the end of its useful mechanical life people are switching.
In the manufacturing I’m involved with recently got rid of their last machine that used 8080 era processors and character only green CRTs.
In the manufacturing I’m involved with recently got rid of their last machine that used 8080 era processors and character only green CRTs.
All the large orders would go the China anyway and nobody can "keep the lights on" with just a small order flow like yours. I remember around 2000 when SV was still full of machine shops that would do prototype and volume manufacturing of parts. Slowly they got moved to Texas and then overseas. Initially the volume manufacturing got moved elsewhere but these shops can't subsist on just prototype volumes alone. Then in a later job, same thing happened to PCBs.
I may be totally wrong, but isn't there some pressure in the other direction because of the prototype turnaround times with overseas manufacturing? I've read articles about people claiming they were able to iterate much faster using domestic prototyping.
Maybe for 1-3 days turnaround local is better but it you can wait a week, the overseas prototyping can save you a lot of money. You have to deal with the communications gap but you can hire people locally to bridge that gap.
The communications gap is worse with US companies.
- "You have to speak with the sales rep for your area for that, and he's out until next week".
- "We don't make that any more." "Then why is it on your web site?"
- "The order form on your web site doesn't work".
- "Live chat is not available at this time".
- "Your call is very important to us. Please leave a message."
Companies in China seem to rely on email, and they answer emails. (I wonder if perhaps spam is less of a problem in China, because the government is very hostile to mass communications from anonymous parties.)
- "You have to speak with the sales rep for your area for that, and he's out until next week".
- "We don't make that any more." "Then why is it on your web site?"
- "The order form on your web site doesn't work".
- "Live chat is not available at this time".
- "Your call is very important to us. Please leave a message."
Companies in China seem to rely on email, and they answer emails. (I wonder if perhaps spam is less of a problem in China, because the government is very hostile to mass communications from anonymous parties.)
I don't even know how some US manufacturers stay in business with how abysmal they are at actually conducting business.
I work in aerospace product development, and my company has projects where we can source components from anywhere and projects where components must be US-supplied.
If I need a 12-fiber Male MT to Female MTP custom wiring harness I have to play email and phone rinky-dink with some regional rep for weeks to get it ordered when dealing with US-based suppliers. Then it has to go up and down the "value adding" chain between the rep, the sales department, business management, purchasing, and finally manufacturing. I have to have an account, deal with purchase orders, and the terms are usually 30-90 days ARO.
Or I can send a crudely-drawn picture with connector part numbers and some basic length figures to a cable house in China, get a quote the next business day, and order the damn thing with a credit card and have it in my hands in a week or two.
And no, the quality is no different. OM3 is OM3, Amphenol connectors are Amphenol connectors, and skill is almost irrelevant when the whole thing gets done up in the same automated fusion splicer that a US firm would use.
With US-based companies that are actually subsidiaries of international firms, I have an entire address book full of points of contact in the "mothership".
With US-based companies that have substantial overseas presences, like the company formerly known as GE Intelligent Platforms, even then the overseas folks are less worthless than the US-based ones.
It actually is a major source of job dissatisfaction when I have to get stuff done and the only POC I have for something I need is "[email protected]" when I know for stone-cold certain that there's a Wang Da Nian in Shenzhen who will abuse Google Translate for hours trying to get my employer's money.
I work in aerospace product development, and my company has projects where we can source components from anywhere and projects where components must be US-supplied.
If I need a 12-fiber Male MT to Female MTP custom wiring harness I have to play email and phone rinky-dink with some regional rep for weeks to get it ordered when dealing with US-based suppliers. Then it has to go up and down the "value adding" chain between the rep, the sales department, business management, purchasing, and finally manufacturing. I have to have an account, deal with purchase orders, and the terms are usually 30-90 days ARO.
Or I can send a crudely-drawn picture with connector part numbers and some basic length figures to a cable house in China, get a quote the next business day, and order the damn thing with a credit card and have it in my hands in a week or two.
And no, the quality is no different. OM3 is OM3, Amphenol connectors are Amphenol connectors, and skill is almost irrelevant when the whole thing gets done up in the same automated fusion splicer that a US firm would use.
With US-based companies that are actually subsidiaries of international firms, I have an entire address book full of points of contact in the "mothership".
With US-based companies that have substantial overseas presences, like the company formerly known as GE Intelligent Platforms, even then the overseas folks are less worthless than the US-based ones.
It actually is a major source of job dissatisfaction when I have to get stuff done and the only POC I have for something I need is "[email protected]" when I know for stone-cold certain that there's a Wang Da Nian in Shenzhen who will abuse Google Translate for hours trying to get my employer's money.
> Then it has to go up and down the "value adding" chain between the rep, the sales department, business management, purchasing, and finally manufacturing.
This times 10. One factor is that many US manufacturers incentivize their sales people so heavily that it actively interferes with getting things done, because that sales rep has to be involved every step of the way.
Another factor is the (apparently) natural tendency of all purchasing departments to become little bureaucracies that turn themselves into the customer by requiring the people who want to buy stuff to do it their way. ('Their' referring to purchasing or whatever the department is called.) Often that bad habit of turning themselves into the customer spreads to other departments.
In fact, I have seen software in use that turns entire sales departments into the customer, insisting that people calling for quotes spend far too much time providing information in the order the application requires it rather than allowing sales people to do what they are supposed to be best at: finding out what the customer wants and giving it to them for a price. I could have solved that problem, but it's tough to get directors interested in changing those kinds of things, let alone VPs and C level executives.
This times 10. One factor is that many US manufacturers incentivize their sales people so heavily that it actively interferes with getting things done, because that sales rep has to be involved every step of the way.
Another factor is the (apparently) natural tendency of all purchasing departments to become little bureaucracies that turn themselves into the customer by requiring the people who want to buy stuff to do it their way. ('Their' referring to purchasing or whatever the department is called.) Often that bad habit of turning themselves into the customer spreads to other departments.
In fact, I have seen software in use that turns entire sales departments into the customer, insisting that people calling for quotes spend far too much time providing information in the order the application requires it rather than allowing sales people to do what they are supposed to be best at: finding out what the customer wants and giving it to them for a price. I could have solved that problem, but it's tough to get directors interested in changing those kinds of things, let alone VPs and C level executives.
Exactly my experience in the US. Then I tried China and am now used to getting fast polite responses literally 365 days per year.
And they appreciate the business.
To be fair I have learned better how to get stuff done in the US - pick up the phone. But unless you're ordering for huge military contracts good luck getting past the attitude.
And they appreciate the business.
To be fair I have learned better how to get stuff done in the US - pick up the phone. But unless you're ordering for huge military contracts good luck getting past the attitude.
I guess everything has become emails and messages now but back when I dealt with local manufacturers (ie machine shops, PCB, etc,) I would just drop by their office and talk with their engineers, brainstorm on the white board, etc. And if your employer was big enough, they would come to your office.
Same thing with spare parts. Need a funky USB to USB cable at a precise length? Someone from China on Ebay will have it.
The "free" shipping time can take 3-12 weeks to Canada. So I always buy extra and re-sell them on Ebay to recover my costs.
I have 4 micro-businesses for beer money of spare parts people are willing to spend an extra $5-10 to get in ~1 week.
The "free" shipping time can take 3-12 weeks to Canada. So I always buy extra and re-sell them on Ebay to recover my costs.
I have 4 micro-businesses for beer money of spare parts people are willing to spend an extra $5-10 to get in ~1 week.
Some of the decline in US manufacturing comes from this sort of thing
Are you sure it's not the other way around? That the decline in US manufacturing leads to this sort of thing?
Are you sure it's not the other way around? That the decline in US manufacturing leads to this sort of thing?
There's a similar issue going on with the square DIN plug used for power connectors on the Commodore 128 and TED series (C16, Plus/4) computers. Someone found a place in China with old stock and has been buying them. One person is building new power supplies and machining their own connectors.
Heh, I've had a similar project on my back burner for a long time having to do with reusable Keurig filters. There are a ton of them on the market, and they all have the same fundamental design flaw: they are just a filter, without the surrounding housing with a small hole designed to hold pressure. So they all make weak coffee (and a huge mess). I would happily sink some money into the design and manufacture of a filter that actually worked. I think it could even be a money-maker, though I'm mainly interested in it for my own personal use. But I have no clue where to even begin looking for someone who could make such a thing. If anyone here has a clue I'd appreciate hearing about it.
This might be an idiot answer, but have you checked your local makerspace? Or contacted someone at a university?
Last year a few of my classmates did an "Aggie Challenge" where they designed something for a private party in exchange for some mentorship and a resume bullet.
We usually do small projects for professors/companies that need help with something simple (like a CAD model/Design).
Last year a few of my classmates did an "Aggie Challenge" where they designed something for a private party in exchange for some mentorship and a resume bullet.
We usually do small projects for professors/companies that need help with something simple (like a CAD model/Design).
No, I haven't. I doubt reusable coffee filters are "cool" enough to attract that kind of attention. I need to somehow reach the people who are already making them, and they are almost certainly in China somewhere.
> For the moment at least, I have nearly the entire world’s supply of DB-19 connectors, stacked in my living room. I think I’m going to fill the bathtub and swim in them.
And 2 years later, all the stock on Ebay is still from North America/Europe. I'm a bit surprised.
And 2 years later, all the stock on Ebay is still from North America/Europe. I'm a bit surprised.
So what’s the follow up? Is OP still happy with their parts? Are they available for purchase at 1/10th the price on AliExpress now? Did they recoup their investment?
I don't find any DB-19 connectors on Aliexpress or Alibaba. eBay has them for either ~$20 or ~$5.
The author recommends buying them from here in the article (that being said, the article is from 2016) so YMMV:
http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/DB19MS
Definitely has been on HN before. Cool read though, once again.
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11839690
Yes, this has been here before. Back then I replied that, when confronted with the same problem, I simply took a hacksaw to a DB-25 and had a working connector within a minute. Not as fancy, maybe, but just as functional...
Sure, that works for a one-off. Not exactly a good solution though when you are selling a new product. "So, plug the cable into the rough hack-sawed connector on the back of our jankey product".
I wonder if it'd come out nice if you water-jet them in bulk and then glue the halves together.
I had some 5/16" paper tape manufactured for use in antique Teletype machines. I tried several US paper tape manufacturers. One quoted me $10 a roll, but made a good roll. One sent me a roll with rough edges that jammed in the machine. Most were uninterested, even for a large order. The US companies were really hard to communicate with, too. Getting emails answered was tough. Phone calls usually went to voicemail. I finally had 1000 rolls made in Fujian, China for $1/roll. They worked fine. Much better customer communication, too.
Some of the decline in US manufacturing comes from this sort of thing.