Allowing voting down of YC comments leads to group-think, Nazi-ism and suppressing of unpopular points of view. Do you agree?
37 comments
I was thinking about the Juwo web site and demo in this context a few days ago: http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/04/when_only_the_g.html
He might have a fantastic tool, but because of the way he's attempted to communicate it (both on this forum and his own web site) and the rigid technical requirements (sorry, but I'm not switching to Windows and/or installing a java browser plugin), he's made it impossible to build an audience or core community of users.
He might have a fantastic tool, but because of the way he's attempted to communicate it (both on this forum and his own web site) and the rigid technical requirements (sorry, but I'm not switching to Windows and/or installing a java browser plugin), he's made it impossible to build an audience or core community of users.
Agreed, I've personally been in Juwo's position too many times to count. As entrepreneurs, I'm would guess we've all had that experience where we've been labeled outsiders, ridiculed and "written off."
I've even developed a saying: "When they call you crazy, you're either extraordinarily stupid or extraordinarily smart. You can only hope for the latter."
I've even developed a saying: "When they call you crazy, you're either extraordinarily stupid or extraordinarily smart. You can only hope for the latter."
I am definitely not "extraordinarily smart", So perhaps by your saying, I am "extraordinarily stupid"!
One word, in the place of your last 3 lines:
Nazi-ism: selecting out the superior strain. Or rather, what the group considers to be superior.
Nazi-ism: selecting out the superior strain. Or rather, what the group considers to be superior.
If your goal is to really to communicate and not just insult (which isn't clear) I suggest using something like "elitism", "snobbery", or anything else that doesn't have so much historical baggage.
I do not "shamelessly self-promotes". Rather, I shamelessly promote juwo. The software, that is.
Nazi-ism? Congratulations, you've just godwin'd YC News.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
Nice one. This law seems to also stretch quite far beyond the internet.
dramatic much? I haven't seen unpopular viewpoints voted down on YCNews yet, and perhaps your comment(s) were voted down because of reasons other than just being an unpopular point of view.
Lastly, using sensationalist terms like "Nazi-ism" and "klansman" detract from any point you're trying to make and equating (or attempting to) any members of YCNews with such terms is beyond ridiculous to put it nicely.
Lastly, using sensationalist terms like "Nazi-ism" and "klansman" detract from any point you're trying to make and equating (or attempting to) any members of YCNews with such terms is beyond ridiculous to put it nicely.
Funny you should bring that up! Today when I was jogging I realized your chosen project name sounds like an antisemitic breakfast beverage: Jew-O, for Nazi astronauts. Cf. The Toyota Incubus (there's a story floating around about a product named Incubus which had to be recalled at the last minute. The culprit is alternately either Toyota, Nike, or Reebok).
that is funny!
juwo used to stand for "Julie's World", a 6 year old orphan in Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangalore, India.
see http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631
juwo used to stand for "Julie's World", a 6 year old orphan in Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangalore, India.
see http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631
I don't personally have a problem with the name, just pointing out that other people might not react to it so well. Sometimes they can't quite put their finger on it but they know the name makes them uneasy for some reason...
Also not recommended:
Snigger.com for a joke site
Also not recommended:
Snigger.com for a joke site
We're just a bunch of people who want to do a start-up so we don't have to slave away for The Man. We're not, like, Gandhi, you know.
It's an opportunity to learn a lesson: people in general are mean, or at least they are often different from you. While it can be frustrating, maybe it's better to know the truth than to live on in an illusion. Especially as an entrepreneur you have to harden against rejection, because you will face a lot of it. In general, nobody will understand you - otherwise, somebody else would already have done the thing you are going to do.
Overall the whole karma thing is a bit weird, as I realized yesterday when I submitted the link to Steve Jobs speech in Stanford. I found the speech really touching and felt somehow bad for getting karma for his achievement - as if I am leeching karma. Probably karma is an unlimited resource in the universe (and especially in a LISP application, as the integer type doesn't seem to have a limit in LISP) and it doesn't quite work in that way (to gain karma, you don't need to steal it from someone else). But still...
Overall the whole karma thing is a bit weird, as I realized yesterday when I submitted the link to Steve Jobs speech in Stanford. I found the speech really touching and felt somehow bad for getting karma for his achievement - as if I am leeching karma. Probably karma is an unlimited resource in the universe (and especially in a LISP application, as the integer type doesn't seem to have a limit in LISP) and it doesn't quite work in that way (to gain karma, you don't need to steal it from someone else). But still...
"...felt somehow bad for getting karma for his achievement..."
You're getting YCNews points (karma) for giving us a link to good content, not for the content itself. And of course it's not like they mean much or there's a limited supply.
You're getting YCNews points (karma) for giving us a link to good content, not for the content itself. And of course it's not like they mean much or there's a limited supply.
you are right about, "people in general are mean, or at least they are often different from you. While it can be frustrating, maybe it's better to know the truth than to live on in an illusion."
until you are a success.
until you are a success.
Juwo: You're clearly hurt by the feedback you got from your announcement. You were brave to put yourself out there and solicit feedback, it was very respectable and ballsy. But you did a very poor job of accepting the honest criticism (that you solicited) gracefully.
Your outbursts are disruptive and you shouldn't be surprised that people don't enjoy being disrupted. For example: Did you really need to call Livingston a thief? How does that relate to startups -- even if it was remotely true?
Please just stop the bitterness and the lashing out. Put that energy into your product, where it belongs. This is a place of learning, not politics and grudges.
Your outbursts are disruptive and you shouldn't be surprised that people don't enjoy being disrupted. For example: Did you really need to call Livingston a thief? How does that relate to startups -- even if it was remotely true?
Please just stop the bitterness and the lashing out. Put that energy into your product, where it belongs. This is a place of learning, not politics and grudges.
"you did a very poor job of accepting the honest criticism"
I think you are completely mistaken! I love honest criticism - that way, I learn. Can you please tell me where I did not accept the honest criticism?
I never called Livingston a thief. Can you point out where?
1)
I think you are completely mistaken! I love honest criticism - that way, I learn. Can you please tell me where I did not accept the honest criticism?
I never called Livingston a thief. Can you point out where?
1)
I lost 30 points in three and a half days. When I look at the fate of my last comment, I realize what's going on
http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15510
Not that I care too much. These karma points make monkeys in a cage scrambling for peanuts look more intelligent than us (future blog material for me!).
http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15510
Not that I care too much. These karma points make monkeys in a cage scrambling for peanuts look more intelligent than us (future blog material for me!).
I really like the fact that comments count for something here. In fact I'd be happy if posts counted for nothing and only comments did. It promotes and rewards discussion, which is what I come here for. Articles are good and all, but the real value of this site is in its users.
I like to believe that the majority of people are like myself and vote up or down on things for the same reasons. Disagreeing with opinions never enters into my mind as a reason to vote down. I vote comments down when they are highly off topic, rude, or personal attacks. I use this in hopes that it sets the tone for YC News. That is, as a place for mature discussion and education about startups, not one where kittens with pancakes on their heads or flamers with four letter vocabularies are welcome.
To be blunt and honest, it is the content of your comments that is causing them to be voted down. The comment in specific that you linked to came across as a personal attack and quite rude. I'm sure this was not your intent, but that's how it came across. This comment you posted referring to members of the community as monkeys also comes across as rude. You may have valid points and questions, but you need to find better ways of saying them. When you attack the people rather than the idea, it doesn't reflect well.
I like to believe that the majority of people are like myself and vote up or down on things for the same reasons. Disagreeing with opinions never enters into my mind as a reason to vote down. I vote comments down when they are highly off topic, rude, or personal attacks. I use this in hopes that it sets the tone for YC News. That is, as a place for mature discussion and education about startups, not one where kittens with pancakes on their heads or flamers with four letter vocabularies are welcome.
To be blunt and honest, it is the content of your comments that is causing them to be voted down. The comment in specific that you linked to came across as a personal attack and quite rude. I'm sure this was not your intent, but that's how it came across. This comment you posted referring to members of the community as monkeys also comes across as rude. You may have valid points and questions, but you need to find better ways of saying them. When you attack the people rather than the idea, it doesn't reflect well.
personal attack? rubbish!
To say my comment was "quite rude" baffles me.
I was directly commenting on something she said in the video. Would you disallow that?
"referring to members of the community as monkeys"
Where was that?? Do you not understand my point?
-------------------
Actually it sounded like a confession and she said 'stealing'. If they are there for her to take, why hide them in her purse? I am not faulting her at all for 'taking' the granola bars. I am certain, I might have done the same as her - but I am unrich and I would have taken them openly, in full view and so I might be justified - I think.
My comment was solely a wonderment, an observation, that a wealthy millionaire needed to do that.
I must be the worst communicator - judging from my product (juwo).
Seriously, can you look beyond what was an unpopular comment? I was trying to understand why an intellectual and financial millionaire from the cream of society did that.
Do millionaires behave differently, or do they stay the same? Or worse?
To say my comment was "quite rude" baffles me.
I was directly commenting on something she said in the video. Would you disallow that?
"referring to members of the community as monkeys"
Where was that?? Do you not understand my point?
-------------------
Actually it sounded like a confession and she said 'stealing'. If they are there for her to take, why hide them in her purse? I am not faulting her at all for 'taking' the granola bars. I am certain, I might have done the same as her - but I am unrich and I would have taken them openly, in full view and so I might be justified - I think.
My comment was solely a wonderment, an observation, that a wealthy millionaire needed to do that.
I must be the worst communicator - judging from my product (juwo).
Seriously, can you look beyond what was an unpopular comment? I was trying to understand why an intellectual and financial millionaire from the cream of society did that.
Do millionaires behave differently, or do they stay the same? Or worse?
See my reply here: http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15593
Though you didn't ask for it, here's my advice: try to put yourself in other peoples shoes. Jessica's not saying she stole granola bars, because they are there for her to take. She's actually complementing google, and telling her audience they are lucky to be working for such a great employer.
Why should you listen to me? You've got a cool-sounding product, my guess is people here have the ability to make it better. If you just chill a little bit, that might actually happen.
Why should you listen to me? You've got a cool-sounding product, my guess is people here have the ability to make it better. If you just chill a little bit, that might actually happen.
Actually it sounded like a confession and she said 'stealing'. If they are there for her to take, why hide them in her purse?
I am not faulting her at all for 'taking' the granola bars. I am certain, I might have done the same as her - but I am unrich and I would have taken them openly, in full view and so I might be justified - I think.
My comment was solely a wonderment, an observation, that a wealthy millionaire needed to do that.
I must be the worst communicator - judging from my product (juwo).
Seriously, can you look beyond what was an unpopular comment? I was trying to understand why an intellectual and financial millionaire from the cream of society did that.
Do millionaires behave differently, or do they stay the same? Or worse?
I am not faulting her at all for 'taking' the granola bars. I am certain, I might have done the same as her - but I am unrich and I would have taken them openly, in full view and so I might be justified - I think.
My comment was solely a wonderment, an observation, that a wealthy millionaire needed to do that.
I must be the worst communicator - judging from my product (juwo).
Seriously, can you look beyond what was an unpopular comment? I was trying to understand why an intellectual and financial millionaire from the cream of society did that.
Do millionaires behave differently, or do they stay the same? Or worse?
Hiding in the purse == saving for eating later
Who really cares if she took some granola bars? It has nothing to do with the ideas she presents and your comment sounded like an ad hominem attack (probably).
Who really cares if she took some granola bars? It has nothing to do with the ideas she presents and your comment sounded like an ad hominem attack (probably).
One thing I like about YC News is that it's rare for comments to get voted down, whereas on reddit and digg it happens like crazy.
Oddly enough, it seems like juwo is the only community member that gets voted down a lot. I'm not sure what that says. It takes a lot for me to vote a comment down and I don't think juwo really deserves it.
Oddly enough, it seems like juwo is the only community member that gets voted down a lot. I'm not sure what that says. It takes a lot for me to vote a comment down and I don't think juwo really deserves it.
juwo gets downmodded because he posts comments on nearly every article, and his posts are frequently off-kilter or ill-considered. As he says himself, he "must be the worst communicator" (http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15510 )-- e.g., witness the really inappropriate Nazi reference in the title to this thread.
Sometimes I find myself wondering if this reflects a major cultural difference he's just not grasping fully? Or just a strange variation on John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (the "Mahir Corollary?")?
Sometimes I find myself wondering if this reflects a major cultural difference he's just not grasping fully? Or just a strange variation on John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (the "Mahir Corollary?")?
Downmodding juwo is push-back from a bored audience. Disagreement has nothing to do with it.
every article???
http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631
http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631
What is the Mahir Corollary? Google doesn't seem to know...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahir
I just coined it.
I just coined it.
No.
What a ridiculous proposition! I disagree strongly! I'm going to vote this article down...
I vote up the submission that asks for voting down of submissions.
It's not like he's a slashdot-digg swarm drowning out reasonable discussion. He's enthusiastic, respects this community a lot, and the site won't particularly be any better if he leaves.
It seems to me a lot like the cool kids not letting Juwo sit at their table.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_79.php
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html