On almost every indicator, Germany’s south is doing better than its north(economist.com)
economist.com
On almost every indicator, Germany’s south is doing better than its north
https://www.economist.com/blogs/kaffeeklatsch/2017/08/explaining-munich-miracle
7 comments
I agree.
I think it is fair to say that Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg have more economical power than other states, and one would be churlish not to recognize that. But those other metrics he cites are chosen arbitrarily:
- School Rankings. If you look for different criteria, e.g. the teacher-pupil ratio in elementary schools, it looks totally different. [1] And if you look at universities, different again [2]. If you look at the school quality (defined by ability to read and STEM subjects) the, east and north looks really good. [3]
- Life expectancy: Come on... Men: Between the 4th and 11th place is just 1 year. Women: Between the 4th and 15th place is one year. [4]
Furthermore I think the combination of this states is chosen rather poorly. Ask anyone in Leipzig or Kassel if they consider themselves to be from the south of Germany. No one would does that.
[1]: http://www.insm-bildungsmonitor.de/2017_best_i_schueler-lehr...
[2]: http://www.insm-bildungsmonitor.de/2017_best_i_betreuungsrel...
[3]: http://www.insm-bildungsmonitor.de/2017_best_i_iqb-lesen-201...
[4]: http://www.lebenserwartung.info/index-Dateien/regdiff.htm
I think it is fair to say that Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg have more economical power than other states, and one would be churlish not to recognize that. But those other metrics he cites are chosen arbitrarily:
- School Rankings. If you look for different criteria, e.g. the teacher-pupil ratio in elementary schools, it looks totally different. [1] And if you look at universities, different again [2]. If you look at the school quality (defined by ability to read and STEM subjects) the, east and north looks really good. [3]
- Life expectancy: Come on... Men: Between the 4th and 11th place is just 1 year. Women: Between the 4th and 15th place is one year. [4]
Furthermore I think the combination of this states is chosen rather poorly. Ask anyone in Leipzig or Kassel if they consider themselves to be from the south of Germany. No one would does that.
[1]: http://www.insm-bildungsmonitor.de/2017_best_i_schueler-lehr...
[2]: http://www.insm-bildungsmonitor.de/2017_best_i_betreuungsrel...
[3]: http://www.insm-bildungsmonitor.de/2017_best_i_iqb-lesen-201...
[4]: http://www.lebenserwartung.info/index-Dateien/regdiff.htm
This. The North has a few big cities but states like Brandenburg, Lower Saxony or even Northern Hesse are basically empty, compared to the South. Of course rural areas have a lower GDP.
> Also, the West-East divide is far bigger than the North-South divide still. There's not a single state in the former East Germany with higher per-capita GDP than any of the former West German ones.
Interesting. It's amazing that even after 25 years of reunification, east germany still lags behind west germany. Also, isn't east germany in northern germany as well. It does seem like the author cherrypicked data just to write an article.
Interesting. It's amazing that even after 25 years of reunification, east germany still lags behind west germany. Also, isn't east germany in northern germany as well. It does seem like the author cherrypicked data just to write an article.
Any division of a country is going to be arbitrary to some extent, but east/west was due to the Berlin Wall-- an artificial border-- while north south is due to culture, a difference more of choice than edict.
> but east/west was due to the Berlin Wall--
No, East-West was because of the border running North-South through Germany intersecting with the main motorway from Hannover to Berlin at Helmstedt.
The Berlin Wall was an interior division separating two parts of Berlin, 'West Berlin' and 'East Berlin', but to get to West Berlin by road you had to cross through a large chunk of East Germany first, and then you'd enter West-Berlin through yet another border crossing. The road from Helmstedt to West-Berlin was known as the 'corridor'.
West Berlin was best thought of as an island within East Germany with the Berlin wall circling West Berlin.
No, East-West was because of the border running North-South through Germany intersecting with the main motorway from Hannover to Berlin at Helmstedt.
The Berlin Wall was an interior division separating two parts of Berlin, 'West Berlin' and 'East Berlin', but to get to West Berlin by road you had to cross through a large chunk of East Germany first, and then you'd enter West-Berlin through yet another border crossing. The road from Helmstedt to West-Berlin was known as the 'corridor'.
West Berlin was best thought of as an island within East Germany with the Berlin wall circling West Berlin.
[deleted]
The characteristic divide in dialects of German is the “Uerdingen” isogloss separating low forms of the language (where the pronoun “I” is pronounced “ik”) from central and high ones (where it is pronounced “ich”).
No. Only Berlin / Brandenburg people say "Ik". Southern German dialects say "I" (pronounced as "ee" would be in English).
No. Only Berlin / Brandenburg people say "Ik". Southern German dialects say "I" (pronounced as "ee" would be in English).
Having lived in Berlin and Freiburg, I can confirm this. I also find it interesting that most in southern Baden-Württemberg still refer to their dialect as "Allemanic"(as in the ancient confederation of Germanic tribes, the "Allemani" Excerpt from Wikipedia: "First mentioned by Cassius Dio in the context of the campaign of Caracalla of 213, the Alemanni captured the Agri Decumates in 260, and later expanded into present-day Alsace, and northern Switzerland, leading to the establishment of the Old High German language in those regions."). The french word for Germans, "Allemands", reflects these old tribal boundaries as well. It's easy to forget that Germany as a unified state is young, but try sometime watching someone from Berlin or Hamburg attempt to decipher a sentence spoken in the rural Allemanic dialect, it's pretty futile.(Note: this doesn't really apply to larger towns like Freiburg anymore. You have to drive half an hour or so into the countryside, and find an older person. Young people often prefer to speak Standard German nowadays).
The article is only incorrect by omission. I am not sure, but you may confusing the term "low form," that is, Low German / Plattdeutsch, with being geographically southern. It is geographically northern -- the "low" refers to elevation, not latitude.
Precisely people in Berlin/Brandenburg say "ik" _because it is Low German, which is spoken in the North of Germany, which is what the Uerdinge isogloss describes_.
The article did fail to mention the other big lines, the Benrather and the Speyer line (which is what you are referring to with Oberdeutsch dialect differentiating between "ich" and "i").
There are a lot of these lines drawn by linguists.
Precisely people in Berlin/Brandenburg say "ik" _because it is Low German, which is spoken in the North of Germany, which is what the Uerdinge isogloss describes_.
The article did fail to mention the other big lines, the Benrather and the Speyer line (which is what you are referring to with Oberdeutsch dialect differentiating between "ich" and "i").
There are a lot of these lines drawn by linguists.
I agree both you and the parent, I don't think you're disagreeing, you're just talking about different things. You're talking about the historical distinction, the parent is talking about how things are nowadays.[0]
I found the article a bit disingenuous since you need to know what the Uerdingen line is and its context to understand what they're saying, since the divide isn't quite what it used to be.
[0]: http://www.atlas-alltagssprache.de/runde-2/f25c/
I found the article a bit disingenuous since you need to know what the Uerdingen line is and its context to understand what they're saying, since the divide isn't quite what it used to be.
[0]: http://www.atlas-alltagssprache.de/runde-2/f25c/
Hah, all this time I thought it was an Austrian thing - my late grandmother while helping me practice my German pronounced it as "Ik" and then quickly corrected herself.
Yeah the South is better than the North for many reasons. I lived in Munich for 22 years but still Octoberfest beer prices doubled since 2002 (introduction of the Euro) (http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-sit...), while wages only rose 20% (http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-sit...). That is why I moved 350km South-West from Munich, Germany (most livable city in Germany) to Zurich, Switzerland (most livable city in the world)
Isn’t Zurich horribly expensive, like the rest of Switzerland? I went to Geneva once and the prices of things struck me compared to what we have in Paris, France (which is already a pretty expensive city).
Consider what you're paid in Zürich. That salary buys you far more here than anywhere else — especially when you compare tax efficiency to its neighboring countries. It's clean, society functions well, and people are kind, etc. You don't find this Goldilocks Zone everywhere.
Compared to the U.S., where I am originally from, I couldn't pay any amount of money to get what I have here.
Compared to the U.S., where I am originally from, I couldn't pay any amount of money to get what I have here.
I live in Geneva, and it's horribly expensive. The living costs as well as rents are insanely high. The wages are higher as well though. The worst thing is if you're paid in Euros and have to convert them to Swiss francs for spending
Why would you get paid in euros? No tech company I know would do that.
I've only been to Berlin and Cologne (sooo boring there) and I found Zurich and the rest of CH so much better. Can you say the key difference between these two countries as a German?
You found Berlin boring, but Switzerland not boring? By what criteria?
No Berlin isnt Cologne is.
I read it as 'Berlin and (boring Cologne)'.
Depends on your preferences. I lived/did part of university in Berlin and live in Zürich now.
Party scene in Berlin is great, but Zürich is more about house parties with friends. Live music was a hair better in Berlin, but we still get interesting acts here.
The nature and outdoor activities rival Berlin any day. The water is clean, warm, and smells nice. Plenty of hills for mountain biking and running, etc. Public transit just works. I could count Zugausfälle on a single hand here; whereas I would have needed a whole accountant book to have inventoried Berlin's and DB.
There is a lot of weird stuff here, too, art- and culture-wise. When H.R. Giger (art designer for Alien) died, I went to his funeral service at the Peterskirche. Brought a strange collection of people out of the woodwork: Swiss Hells Angels (ha!) and a bunch of other freaks. People here small talk a bunch here out in public, so I've gotten to meet a bunch of random folks more informally than I have elsewhere.
If you like craft or international beer or cocktails, Zürich probably beats Berlin. The market is more globalized here, so you can find beer from anywhere in the world (pedestrian German beer is still better than in CH, though the microbreweries here are outstanding). That was a challenge in Berlin: only one or two places to find Belgian beer. A good cocktail in Berlin cost € 18 (my benchmark was an unlabeled speakeasy near Rosenthaler Platz whose name I forget; it was the only proper cocktail bar I found in months of searching/trial), which is a lot of cash on a Berlin salary. A similar quality cocktail in Zürich costs the same, but that is cheap on local salary.
As a parent (not one who sequesters himself and child like so many others do — at least in the U.S.), the day-to-day here is priceless and frictionless. So many fun things to do with a little one. In Berlin, I would constantly worry about broken glass on the sidewalks, which isn't a problem here. Try keeping an eye to ensure the little one doesn't fall into it; it's a challenge.
Street food was better in Berlin, to be sure, but sit-down restaurants between both cities are a toss-up. The Indian is certainly better in Zürich, and the same can be said for the Vietnamese. Fewer of the foreign restaurants here do the whole Pan-Asian do-everything-but-nothing-well than in Berlin. The slow food festival as well as some of the pop up restaurants are a nice addition to the scene — actually really nice. We (slow food group) did a large potluck at an old slaughter house by Letzigrund a year back. Someone caught a monster of a fish from Lake Zürich and smoked it there on premise: some two meter long thing that was wider than my torso.
I don't know. Both are great. I keep very busy and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
Party scene in Berlin is great, but Zürich is more about house parties with friends. Live music was a hair better in Berlin, but we still get interesting acts here.
The nature and outdoor activities rival Berlin any day. The water is clean, warm, and smells nice. Plenty of hills for mountain biking and running, etc. Public transit just works. I could count Zugausfälle on a single hand here; whereas I would have needed a whole accountant book to have inventoried Berlin's and DB.
There is a lot of weird stuff here, too, art- and culture-wise. When H.R. Giger (art designer for Alien) died, I went to his funeral service at the Peterskirche. Brought a strange collection of people out of the woodwork: Swiss Hells Angels (ha!) and a bunch of other freaks. People here small talk a bunch here out in public, so I've gotten to meet a bunch of random folks more informally than I have elsewhere.
If you like craft or international beer or cocktails, Zürich probably beats Berlin. The market is more globalized here, so you can find beer from anywhere in the world (pedestrian German beer is still better than in CH, though the microbreweries here are outstanding). That was a challenge in Berlin: only one or two places to find Belgian beer. A good cocktail in Berlin cost € 18 (my benchmark was an unlabeled speakeasy near Rosenthaler Platz whose name I forget; it was the only proper cocktail bar I found in months of searching/trial), which is a lot of cash on a Berlin salary. A similar quality cocktail in Zürich costs the same, but that is cheap on local salary.
As a parent (not one who sequesters himself and child like so many others do — at least in the U.S.), the day-to-day here is priceless and frictionless. So many fun things to do with a little one. In Berlin, I would constantly worry about broken glass on the sidewalks, which isn't a problem here. Try keeping an eye to ensure the little one doesn't fall into it; it's a challenge.
Street food was better in Berlin, to be sure, but sit-down restaurants between both cities are a toss-up. The Indian is certainly better in Zürich, and the same can be said for the Vietnamese. Fewer of the foreign restaurants here do the whole Pan-Asian do-everything-but-nothing-well than in Berlin. The slow food festival as well as some of the pop up restaurants are a nice addition to the scene — actually really nice. We (slow food group) did a large potluck at an old slaughter house by Letzigrund a year back. Someone caught a monster of a fish from Lake Zürich and smoked it there on premise: some two meter long thing that was wider than my torso.
I don't know. Both are great. I keep very busy and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
If you look for a job / if you want to move to Zurich, let me know: "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...
Is Zurich the most livable city for you or according to some study? I found it average (definitely not bad) but I have only been there about 10 days in my life. For example, given a choice I'd choose to live in Luzern than Zurich.
I find the more interesting distinction is between the fates of Bavaria and Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony, formed by the British by amalgamating smaller states after the war). Both are large, agrarian states, with Niedersachsen somewhat wealthier in the 1950s. However Bavaria diversified its economy better and became a powerhouse, while Niedersachsen was, IIRC, the poorest of the West German Länder at the time of unification, and until that time received the most federal assistance.
From today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/6v3fma/three_germa...
also recent:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/18/16162234/r...
Today, Massachusetts’s GDP per capita is about double what you find in Mississippi — roughly equivalent to the gap between Switzerland and Slovakia — and it’s not getting any narrower.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/6v3fma/three_germa...
also recent:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/18/16162234/r...
Today, Massachusetts’s GDP per capita is about double what you find in Mississippi — roughly equivalent to the gap between Switzerland and Slovakia — and it’s not getting any narrower.
That's a highly misleading comparison. The Switzerland-Slovakia comparison is PPP-adjusted GDP per capita. Comparisons between US states are not. Adjusted for purchasing power, the MS-MA comparison looks very different, with MA only 15% richer: https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2016/10/1.... That's closer than Switzerland versus Germany.
It doesn't stop at the German border, though. And if you look at this map, the distinction between S and N is much less clear: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gross_domestic_pro...
Southern Germany, Western Austria, Northern Italy, Switzerland and parts of France: There's a big wealth cluster in the larger region around the Alps. Why? I don't know, but as a South German myself, I'm not too convinced by the claims of the article.
_per_inhabitant,_in_purchasing_power_standard_(PPS),_by_NUTS_2_regions,_2009_(%25_of_the_EU-27_average,_EU-27%3D100).png){kind=link}
Southern Germany, Western Austria, Northern Italy, Switzerland and parts of France: There's a big wealth cluster in the larger region around the Alps. Why? I don't know, but as a South German myself, I'm not too convinced by the claims of the article.
I remember learning about the Blue Banana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana) in high school. You can see it pretty clearly on your map.
And it used to be the other way around, with Bavaria being very poor. Decades of Länderfinanzausgleich fixed that.
Now the industries of Northrine-Westfalia have been in decline for some time, so that's been dragging everything down. And Berlin lost a lot of its aid and most of the East is also somewhat northern.
Now the industries of Northrine-Westfalia have been in decline for some time, so that's been dragging everything down. And Berlin lost a lot of its aid and most of the East is also somewhat northern.
Is this a historic trend or a consequence of the war?
like between Prussia and Bavaria?
I took it to mean the Second World War, and the different occupation zones.
I wasn't specific, but you could go back to romans in the south and south-west.
[deleted]
It's primarily because Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, and Hesse are the richest non-city states (in terms of per-capita GDP). But if you include city states, then Hamburg and Bremen are both richer than those, while Saxony, Thuringia, Rhineland-Palatinate and the Saarland are among the poorer German states [1]. (Comparatively speaking; obviously, they're still pretty darn well off compared to most of the world.)
Also, the West-East divide is far bigger than the North-South divide still. There's not a single state in the former East Germany with higher per-capita GDP than any of the former West German ones.
The line that the article draws is overall pretty arbitrary and mixes up rich and poor states on both sides of the divide. The EU has regional breakdowns at the NUTS-2 [2] and NUTS-3 level that provide a more nuanced picture.
[1] http://imactivate.com/regionexplorer/indexedeu/?options=true...
[2] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...