Just Say No(jacquesmattheij.com)
jacquesmattheij.com
Just Say No
https://jacquesmattheij.com/just-say-no
353 comments
> If you’re reading this as a technical person: there will always be technically clueless people who will attempt to use you and your skills as tools to commit some crime.
You may be overstating that a bit. I've been doing tech for a while, and I can't recall anyone ever asking me to abuse my skills for ill-gotten gain.
You may be overstating that a bit. I've been doing tech for a while, and I can't recall anyone ever asking me to abuse my skills for ill-gotten gain.
When I was a teen I was offered cash to turn back speedometers many times, and always refused. This started after I set the speedo on my own car back to zero, but I was customizing it for myself, not flipping it for a fast buck, and it was already 25 years old anyway.
Back around the turn of the century I was offered a bit of cash to build a "Revenge Porn" site. The guy who called me sounded very mild and calm, even nice. He did say he'd been turned down a few times but he also seemed determined to make the site.
I had never heard of this idea at the time and was pretty surprised with the concept. I turned him down, of course, but what surprised me most was how many friends and acquaintances told me I should've taken the cash when I told them the story.
I'm 58 years old now and the number of people who've asked me to help with their scams, and have tried to scam me, is far more than I can remember. With all that experience I can spot them easily now but it never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to do that.
Back around the turn of the century I was offered a bit of cash to build a "Revenge Porn" site. The guy who called me sounded very mild and calm, even nice. He did say he'd been turned down a few times but he also seemed determined to make the site.
I had never heard of this idea at the time and was pretty surprised with the concept. I turned him down, of course, but what surprised me most was how many friends and acquaintances told me I should've taken the cash when I told them the story.
I'm 58 years old now and the number of people who've asked me to help with their scams, and have tried to scam me, is far more than I can remember. With all that experience I can spot them easily now but it never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to do that.
I don't wish for the feeling of desperation on anybody. Even for someone who has morals, desperation can warp your sense of reality. Back when I was a truck driver, I had a substantial offer from someone to transport a duffle bag in my utility lock box across state lines. I was desperate, and it was a lot of money. I rationalized, told myself it was just gonna be some drugs, and I never get pulled over anyway. No big deal, I told myself. Until I grabbed the bag, and realized it wasn't drugs. Took a peek once I was out of sight, and it was definitely submachine guns. I started panicking and about 10 miles down the road came up with my plan. I pulled over, punctured a cooling hose, ran my engine til I overheated, and then called my contact and told him I had overheated and steamed out all my coolant and wasn't going to make it. That interaction was probably the most terrifying experience of my life. Never again.
I believe the author’s post is a little condescending and ignores the nuances of such situations. Sure, it's easy enough to "just say no" if you're already pretty successful and have a lot to lose by engaging in illegal activity. But what about the talented hacker who has failed career wise and is going through a really tough phase financially. It might seem that there's everything to gain and nothing to lose.
If you have a choice of being able feed your family or “just say no” to modifying an odometer, what would you choose?
If you have a choice of being able feed your family or “just say no” to modifying an odometer, what would you choose?
Great advice. I once let a company license legitimate software (a history cleaner before browsers offered this functionality) I wrote and they wrapped it in adware and caused a lot of people headaches. It felt gross. They didn't make it clear what they were going to do with it beforehand, but there were signs I should have noticed--their business model description sounded too good to be true. You can't just wash your hands of these things and have a clear conscience because you didn't do it personally.
The low point was finding their adware on my mom's computer.
Personally, I made it a rule after that to avoid business relations with the morally questionable. They drag you down.
The low point was finding their adware on my mom's computer.
Personally, I made it a rule after that to avoid business relations with the morally questionable. They drag you down.
My first co-founder was a brilliant engineer. One day I borrowed his car (a fancy late model sports car) for an errand because mine was blocked in. But the speedometer didn't work which made for some strange driving. When I asked him about it, he said, "Oh I disconnected it to improve it's resale value."
We didn't remain together much longer.
To this day, the value of a relationship with another businessperson = sum(assets) * EthicsFactor. EthicsFactor is 1 or 0. There is no in-between.
Nice post, Jacques. It sure feels nice to comment in one your threads again.
We didn't remain together much longer.
To this day, the value of a relationship with another businessperson = sum(assets) * EthicsFactor. EthicsFactor is 1 or 0. There is no in-between.
Nice post, Jacques. It sure feels nice to comment in one your threads again.
I have a story of temptation and pressure---not as good as Jacques's but maybe interesting anyway. I was leaving grad school (not for tech) and getting back into programming. I had two new kids, and I was really ready to stop living on $21k/yr (my student stipend), but I didn't have a lot of work yet, and I wasn't sure how my 5-year hiatus would look.
I had done a few projects for a small agency, and the owner was having me spec & quote work for potential new customers. One of these customers wanted us to build a "dashboard" to control a fleet of machines that would generate fake reviews for sites like Yelp or Amazon. I'm not even sure if that is illegal, but it didn't seem good. I told him it didn't sound like work we could do. If he had been just my customer, it would have been easy, but it raised my anxiety to say it to my customer's customer.
I think Jacques's conclusion about "a bad beginning" is very wise, and I'm glad he had to foresight to see all that. I hope his story helps keep other people out of trouble. His writing it up is really a gift to them.
I had done a few projects for a small agency, and the owner was having me spec & quote work for potential new customers. One of these customers wanted us to build a "dashboard" to control a fleet of machines that would generate fake reviews for sites like Yelp or Amazon. I'm not even sure if that is illegal, but it didn't seem good. I told him it didn't sound like work we could do. If he had been just my customer, it would have been easy, but it raised my anxiety to say it to my customer's customer.
I think Jacques's conclusion about "a bad beginning" is very wise, and I'm glad he had to foresight to see all that. I hope his story helps keep other people out of trouble. His writing it up is really a gift to them.
I am curious how much this extends to:
A) Facebook and Google mining people's data
B) Cisco building extensive survellance systems
C) Microsoft was blatantly abusing it's monopoly
I could go on but all these had many many engineers involved. And best of it all, most of it was .. legal. When something is outright illegal, it's easy to say no.
I could go on but all these had many many engineers involved. And best of it all, most of it was .. legal. When something is outright illegal, it's easy to say no.
If you're offered a job from Facebook should you say "no"?
I've had people try to get me to do illegal things for 25 years. It was much more aggressive and enticing when I was young. It's easier for adult me to recognize and reject these advances than it was for teenage me. It wasn't always even money that was on the table, but recognition and acceptance which can make you do crazy things.
My alma mater added a course requirement on professional ethics shortly after I left, partly due to multiple "incidents" at the university (not because of me... this time).
Ethics is the difference between Dr. Spock and Dr. Frankenstein.
Ethics is the difference between Dr. Spock and Dr. Frankenstein.
I've had a situation like this before.
A friend referred two commodity traders to me. They wanted to contract me for SEO purposes. Why? When you searched for their names on Google/Bing, articles about fraud charges came up. They wanted me to push them off the front page. I was able to do that kind of work, because I had done it before for more benign situations. My friend told me I could name my price, because they were outrageously rich (apparently from their fraud schemes).
I spoke with them over the phone. Their reason for wanting to do this was: "It's a real bummer when you're dating a hot chick and she looks you up and sees all these negative articles online." Bullshit. I smelled it immediately. I didn't need abetting and conspiracy charges leveled against me. Even if I had agreed to do it, I doubt they would have paid me in full. I mean, I had evidence of their alleged fraudulent behavior.
The problem is that sometimes the fraudsters are really good, and what looks like a legitimate job has a less obvious ulterior use.
A friend referred two commodity traders to me. They wanted to contract me for SEO purposes. Why? When you searched for their names on Google/Bing, articles about fraud charges came up. They wanted me to push them off the front page. I was able to do that kind of work, because I had done it before for more benign situations. My friend told me I could name my price, because they were outrageously rich (apparently from their fraud schemes).
I spoke with them over the phone. Their reason for wanting to do this was: "It's a real bummer when you're dating a hot chick and she looks you up and sees all these negative articles online." Bullshit. I smelled it immediately. I didn't need abetting and conspiracy charges leveled against me. Even if I had agreed to do it, I doubt they would have paid me in full. I mean, I had evidence of their alleged fraudulent behavior.
The problem is that sometimes the fraudsters are really good, and what looks like a legitimate job has a less obvious ulterior use.
In certain cultures, someone who won't steal from a rich employer to help family members is considered disloyal, and has reason to fear ostracism. And this in a culture where family connections are paramount. Solution of one such employee, somewhere in the western Pacific: Tell any lie necessary to hide the fact.
I was involved in the warez scene as a cracker and a trader around the turn of the century. In a way it was a fun scene with groups that had strict hierarchies as in companies, the community aspect was strong, you could earn fame if you worked hard enough for it and had the skill, which was all pretty fascinating for us youngsters spending their nights in front of their PCs. In hindsight though, it was flatout stupid to participate in illegal activities over unencrypted IRC channels and FTP sites located at universities with hundreds of users. There were bouncers/tcp-tunnels and stuff, but many didn't care to use them. Things got scary when some of my affiliates got busted in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Buccaneer. Thankfully I got out without getting my ass burned.
Ethics aside, at a certain point, you realize you can make a lot more money legally and legitimately using your technical skills than through any sort of "clever" technical scheme that involves hacking odometers or scamming people in some way.
There is an incredibly powerful German anti-war poem titled "say no" [1], that I instantaneously associated with the title.
I think it's important for people involved with technology to have an ethical compass that of course includes criminal activities, but ideally also goes beyond that.
1: http://www.swans.com/library/art13/xxx123.html
I think it's important for people involved with technology to have an ethical compass that of course includes criminal activities, but ideally also goes beyond that.
1: http://www.swans.com/library/art13/xxx123.html
This must be a much more difficult offer to turn down if you are in an economically depressed nation where job prospects are not good. In the US, even though there are plenty of rough areas, if you are skilled and/or well educated you have a lot of opportunities so it is a lot easier to say no. If its the difference between basic necessities for your family or not its not so easy to "just say no".
I've never done anything explicitly illegal in the context of programming, but some opportunities which fall in the gray area of legality are just too tempting to pass upon.
I did consulting in reverse-engineering and provided documentation and tool too exploit certain vulnerabilities. Provided that I never used those tool myself for profit, the liability falls onto my clients, considering that I also signed a contract explicitly stating that.
The reason why I loved doing this work so much is because it was highly challenging, considerably more complicated than any software engineering job I ever had before. And more importantly I was extremely good at it, and more often than not I discovered something which no one ever did before. It felt like a mix of software development and scientific research.
Unfortunately when it comes to reverse-engineering, there are not many strictly "white hat" applications for it, besides pentesting and security audit. And naturally I missed building things and creating something which would actually make people's lives better.
I did consulting in reverse-engineering and provided documentation and tool too exploit certain vulnerabilities. Provided that I never used those tool myself for profit, the liability falls onto my clients, considering that I also signed a contract explicitly stating that.
The reason why I loved doing this work so much is because it was highly challenging, considerably more complicated than any software engineering job I ever had before. And more importantly I was extremely good at it, and more often than not I discovered something which no one ever did before. It felt like a mix of software development and scientific research.
Unfortunately when it comes to reverse-engineering, there are not many strictly "white hat" applications for it, besides pentesting and security audit. And naturally I missed building things and creating something which would actually make people's lives better.
This article enters a difficult grey area. What should one do when a family member requests something illegal and there's a possibility of retribution for refusing to do it? The solution: lying can be an acceptable way to avoid unethical behavior.
I applaud the author for doing the right thing. I'm not sure I would have been as ethical.
That said, my favorite line is: Salmon, French cheese, party time.
I applaud the author for doing the right thing. I'm not sure I would have been as ethical.
That said, my favorite line is: Salmon, French cheese, party time.
Just say no, but not for moral reasons: say no because, unless you are absolutely desperate, it is the most profitable choice. Relationships with dangerous people who gain blackmail leverage over you will end badly - probably badly enough to offset all prior gains.
I had similar in school. A friend who was applying to grad school thought it would be easier to break into school systems than to study for class. I told him no. He eventually found his way into law school and politics.
I have this wonderful image of the family member in question, after Jacques said "No", trying the Ferris Bueller method of putting the cars on blocks, putting them in reverse, and locking down the accelerator.
So that explains why that taxi cab was driving backwards down my street in Amsterdam. I thought it was because it was a one-way street that was blocked around the corner.
I've seen plenty of people fall into shady karma, especially my (ahem) peers in the early peer-to-peer space. Other than Zooko and Roger Dingeldine it seems most of the guys had to make a bunch of bullshit philosophical contortions about how associating with lowlifes and mobsters was OK. Some of those guys made money, a lot didn't, but their karma will forever be sullied.
meh... low risk = low reward, high risk = higher reward.
Morality/Ethics is POV problem.
Morality/Ethics is POV problem.
> Just say no. And lie if you have to.
I'm extremely interested in the modern morality of lying, because on the one hand, we find some lies to be so heinous that they are career-ending (plagiarism among them), and some lies to be so necessary that _not_ lying is viewed as heinous (e.g. "Would you lie to an S.S. soldier about whether you were hiding Jews in your house?")
Here, Jacques spends the entire blog post trying to persuade people to avoid immoral behavior -- but then advocates lying. Is lying not immoral anymore?
I would be very interested in knowing what percentage of people view lying as objectively wrong, and how that has changed over time.
I'm extremely interested in the modern morality of lying, because on the one hand, we find some lies to be so heinous that they are career-ending (plagiarism among them), and some lies to be so necessary that _not_ lying is viewed as heinous (e.g. "Would you lie to an S.S. soldier about whether you were hiding Jews in your house?")
Here, Jacques spends the entire blog post trying to persuade people to avoid immoral behavior -- but then advocates lying. Is lying not immoral anymore?
I would be very interested in knowing what percentage of people view lying as objectively wrong, and how that has changed over time.
I wonder what happens once you've already done the illegal thing, perhaps not even realizing that what you're doing is against the law.
I think the quickest way to stifle innovation in software (or drive it out of the country) would be to implement a professional organization.
Sometimes You just have to follow your heart. It's not about getting it right; it's about doing what's right.
It's a surprisingly urgent problem in a field that enables mass government surveillance, dark patterns, big data aggregation, and cyber warfare.
As an attorney, I wonder if software engineers should consider implementing some kind of rules for professional conduct and an organization to enforce it like the lawyers have.