Steve Jobs to Valleywag at 2:20 AM: “Why are you so bitter?”(venturebeat.com)
venturebeat.com
Steve Jobs to Valleywag at 2:20 AM: “Why are you so bitter?”
http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/15/steve-jobs-to-valleywag-why-are-you-so-bitter/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Venturebeat+(VentureBeat)
10 comments
It's a great question. Why are people so bitter? We have several really good SmartPhone platforms to choose from today. Looks like the tablet market will be as competitive. So if we're not being forced into one platform and have the freedom to simply buy another product that suits our needs what's the real issue here? The post-PC era is going to be about making technology accessible to everyone. Is this bitterness maybe from the old guard who likes a world where they get to be the tech savvy computer genius their friends & family rely on? Or have they built their identity around being one of the privileged elite who are educated enough to do complex and interesting things with technology? Are they offended by the idea a company might choose not to design products specifically for their needs? There's definitely some deeper issues here. Also if Dylan was 20 today he would probably be more concerned about real world issues like climate change, human rights, the corporate take over of America, the ever growing inequality between the rich and poor, etc. I gotta believe his choice of which telephone to buy might be kinda far down the list of concerns.
"By the way, what have you done that's so great? Do you create anything, or just criticise others work and belittle their motivations?"
Burn.
Burn.
Upvoted for hilarity factor. But from a logical standpoint this is really a bad argument. Writing often has a destructive purpose; what the person has "created" has very little to do with whether his criticism is valid or not.
Yeah, it's also a pretty weird attitude. Certainly not one that scientifically or engineering-minded people should have. If someone alleges that your physics experiment has a problem, the proper answer isn't: "Oh yeah? Well I've got tenure and recently won a major award in my field. What kind of physics discoveries have you made lately?" Scientists actually lose a lot of reputation if they start getting that sort of attitude--- it's been the sad fate of some late-career scientists.
I don't think Jobs was talking about engineering there, he was talking about business decisions. Look at these quotes from the last set of exchanges:
You have the chance to set the tone for a new platform. For the new phone and tablet platform. The platform of the future! I am disappointed to see it’s the same old revenge power bullshit.
By the way, what have you done that’s so great? Do you create anything, or just criticize others work and belittle their motivations?
(Emphasis added) Jobs mentions several times it's a business decision for the platform made to create a good customer experience. Incidentally, I wouldn't be bothered by a scientist who had that attitude, if he was given vague criticism by someone without a physics background.
You have the chance to set the tone for a new platform. For the new phone and tablet platform. The platform of the future! I am disappointed to see it’s the same old revenge power bullshit.
By the way, what have you done that’s so great? Do you create anything, or just criticize others work and belittle their motivations?
(Emphasis added) Jobs mentions several times it's a business decision for the platform made to create a good customer experience. Incidentally, I wouldn't be bothered by a scientist who had that attitude, if he was given vague criticism by someone without a physics background.
But unlike a physics experiment, the decisions about open or closed platforms are moral. It's the equivalent of criticizing Gandhi for some minor detail of his fasting, to which he says "no, this is how I will fast, because this is my fasting and my movement". "Oh, and when have you ever started a movement? Or do you just criticize others?"
Btw, it's this type of close-mindedness and insularity that leads to tremendous abuses in society. Witness the Catholic abuse scandals. Can one criticize the Church without being a member or part of its leadership structure or even without believing in God? I hope so.
Did you seriously just equate curating the App Store with raping children? And get 5 points for it?
hmm...ok, so a political dissident can't criticize a brutal dicatorship because he's never created a brutal dictatorship before?
It's just not optimally written, the major question should be:
Which application do you want to write that oh so really demands Flash and would give users better experience than going native?
I don't believe such an application exists!
Which application do you want to write that oh so really demands Flash and would give users better experience than going native?
I don't believe such an application exists!
The original quote is simply a defensive version of _why's much HN-loved quote:
"When you don’t create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. Your tastes only narrow and exclude people. so create."
Jobs is a human being. How would you like it if you poured yourself into creating the best platform experience that you think is possible, and you find all around you critics that sound to you as if they are saying "fuck you for only making me a chocolate cake, bake me one with strawberries on top!"
"When you don’t create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. Your tastes only narrow and exclude people. so create."
Jobs is a human being. How would you like it if you poured yourself into creating the best platform experience that you think is possible, and you find all around you critics that sound to you as if they are saying "fuck you for only making me a chocolate cake, bake me one with strawberries on top!"
Internet drama really has come a long way, hasn't it?
Indeed. Instead of arguing with Apple fanbois on your favorite forum, you can have the exact same inane and irrelevant argument with one of Apple's co-founders! And it even ends with namecalling and a personal attacks! I love it.
[deleted]
It's good to be reminded that Jobs really does think he's doing the right thing. He's wrong, but he does seem to genuinely believe it.
No, he is right. If you don't want to make great apps, you are free not to make them, or to make that what you think would be great with Flash for another platforms (but note that evan Adobe can't make the demo which doesn't crash on these other platforms(!)).
Exactly the selection of what makes his platform is what makes it unique and, to people who buy the product, better than other offerings.
Exactly the selection of what makes his platform is what makes it unique and, to people who buy the product, better than other offerings.
As a programmer I thought that preventing the use of some language on a platform by contract really sucked, but I've seen applications written in flash on the IPhone since and they are painfully slow.
I don't have an IPhone but I can understand that having lots of applications in the store and not knowing whether an application you try would be slow or fast would really feel like a lottery. It's sad because the adobe flash tool are great animation tools, and I don't know of anything coming close on the Iphone.
The impact on the battery would be unsolvable too. Sometimes it's better to avoid issues.
I don't have an IPhone but I can understand that having lots of applications in the store and not knowing whether an application you try would be slow or fast would really feel like a lottery. It's sad because the adobe flash tool are great animation tools, and I don't know of anything coming close on the Iphone.
The impact on the battery would be unsolvable too. Sometimes it's better to avoid issues.
"The impact on the battery would be unsolvable too."
That simply is not true. Flash on Android does not destroy the battery, going off of what testers, developers have reported as well as the video demo that plays video in Flash for a while and shows the impact on the battery life.
Also, your comment does not speak to the fact that Apple is banning the Flash-to-native iPhone app compiler. That does not fall victim to the Flash-is-slow scenario you're offering.
Also, poorly written Flash apps can be slow. Poorly written iOS apps can be slow as well.
That simply is not true. Flash on Android does not destroy the battery, going off of what testers, developers have reported as well as the video demo that plays video in Flash for a while and shows the impact on the battery life.
Also, your comment does not speak to the fact that Apple is banning the Flash-to-native iPhone app compiler. That does not fall victim to the Flash-is-slow scenario you're offering.
Also, poorly written Flash apps can be slow. Poorly written iOS apps can be slow as well.
Yes the impact of the battery would be unsolvable. Even if it isn't very bad, just a bit bad, the issue is that you have all that extra layer, consuming battery life. And battery life is probably the biggest issue in portable devices these days. There is no way to put a bigger one to solve the problem. There is no bigger one, and there won't be one in the next years probably.
Yes, the flash to native ban suck but it's probably not the way the flash works on the iphone with cs5 given the performance I've seen. As a programmer, it has no sense to vorbid a language, as every language are sort of equivalent in the end.
I would like to see flash works on iphone, and androids but the current port is slow for even the simplest thing. Even a single movie clip was slow on what I've seen. It's not possible to write a responsive flash app if even that is slow. There is no code, it can't be poorly written...
Yes, the flash to native ban suck but it's probably not the way the flash works on the iphone with cs5 given the performance I've seen. As a programmer, it has no sense to vorbid a language, as every language are sort of equivalent in the end.
I would like to see flash works on iphone, and androids but the current port is slow for even the simplest thing. Even a single movie clip was slow on what I've seen. It's not possible to write a responsive flash app if even that is slow. There is no code, it can't be poorly written...
I love that there is no reply after Steve's final question. What DOES this guy make?
I don't think that really matters. Imagine someone makes a disease, and starts infecting people with it. Should you really dismiss the guy who says, "hey, this disease is bad, stop infecting people with it" simply because he doesn't make a vaccine?
If anything, not making anything means you are less likely to be biased. Steve likes the iPad because he made it, not because it's intrinsically good. This biases his views on how it affects the software world.
Anyway, making something is good, but not making doesn't mean that your commentary on other people's products is not useful.
If anything, not making anything means you are less likely to be biased. Steve likes the iPad because he made it, not because it's intrinsically good. This biases his views on how it affects the software world.
Anyway, making something is good, but not making doesn't mean that your commentary on other people's products is not useful.
Anyway, making something is good, but not making something doesn't mean you lose any credibility.
It means you don't have credibility to start with.
It means you don't have credibility to start with.
and what has Steve Jobs literally made himself as opposed to telling others what to make? Jobs has made less than probably most people on HN. Let's hear it for the countless thousands of engineers and designers who break their backs for Steve so he can be literally lord it over those who obviously aren't the great "maker" that he is.
Edited.
I love how Steve does not really answer the tricky questions and only goes the "Apple is your savior" path. What makes me bitter is that Apple clearly gives a sh*t about porn or flash or whatever. Steve cares about the money, nothing more. And on this way he spits on the freedom of the users. But whatever.. i will again get downvoted because most people here feel attacked and will smash the little down arrow like a little kid that starts to cry when telling him that the teletubbies aren't real.
Except for that ridiculous moralizing about porn (firstly, the platform should not be designed to censor content and secondly, stopping porn by not having Flash seems stupidly inefficient), Jobs is perfectly right. It's their platform and they can choose what to offer. While not an Apple user, I am nevertheless thoroughly enjoying Adobe's problems - been burned by crappy Flash plugins on Linux and I feel a sane and open wrapper for video is long overdue. Go suck a bag of dicks, Adobe. Your indispensible Flash is getting less so with every effort such as this one.
And another one that didn't get it. The mails are not about Flash videos on the web. They are about writing cross platform programs that are not running on a flash plugin on the iPhone but are cross compiled to ObjC.
The "but developers can choose whether they want to write their programm for iPhone OS or for other platforms"-argument is so ridiculous, it makes me cry. In practice people have no choice but to develop for iPhone OS (because it's the biggest app platform) and then, if money/time/effort allows, write a second app for the rest of the world. And i think, as a developer i can complain and bitch all day about it, even if it won't change something. Of course, Steve can do whatever he likes with the platform. If developers like that is another question.
The "but developers can choose whether they want to write their programm for iPhone OS or for other platforms"-argument is so ridiculous, it makes me cry. In practice people have no choice but to develop for iPhone OS (because it's the biggest app platform) and then, if money/time/effort allows, write a second app for the rest of the world. And i think, as a developer i can complain and bitch all day about it, even if it won't change something. Of course, Steve can do whatever he likes with the platform. If developers like that is another question.
It looks like some commenters here and on the linked site actually believe this is a genuine email exchange with the real Steve Jobs... Why?
It looks like you don't believe that it's even possible. Why?
It feels like it is more likely that this is made up than Jobs actually replying to some random dudes email.
Heh, I chuckled pretty hard at the Skunkworks joke.
I think Steve Jobs has hired Dan Lyons as an email assistant!