“My position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated”(macosxautomation.com)
macosxautomation.com
“My position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated”
https://macosxautomation.com/about.html
14 comments
>"I was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons"
At one of my former employers, when they wanted to get rid of someone nicely, that is provide them their due retirement benefits, etc. They'd eliminate the position. Few months later they'd come up with a new position with similar function with a new person in charge.
At least they were nice about it, I suppose, but appeared quite transparent.
At one of my former employers, when they wanted to get rid of someone nicely, that is provide them their due retirement benefits, etc. They'd eliminate the position. Few months later they'd come up with a new position with similar function with a new person in charge.
At least they were nice about it, I suppose, but appeared quite transparent.
Just for fun / boredom, if he was granted $100,000 worth of shares every year since 1997 and reinvested his dividends after they started paying out, he'd have somewhere near 800,000 shares today worth nearly $85 million.
Holding onto shares you are granted is one of the most reckless things you can do financially.
Whenever you are granted shares, ask yourself the following question. If you were given the equivalent amount in a cash bonus, would you use that cash bonus to buy stock in a single company?
For every Apple example, there are 100+ cases where people held onto their shares and rode them right into company bankruptcy, at which point they lost all of their bonus AND their job.
Whenever you are granted shares, ask yourself the following question. If you were given the equivalent amount in a cash bonus, would you use that cash bonus to buy stock in a single company?
For every Apple example, there are 100+ cases where people held onto their shares and rode them right into company bankruptcy, at which point they lost all of their bonus AND their job.
The highway of failures in Silicon Valley is littered with burned out husks of companies.
They should put up little memorials to them. You could reflect on these things while coming into the lobby. "Huh, Pets.com and Flooz both had office space here once..."
They should put up little memorials to them. You could reflect on these things while coming into the lobby. "Huh, Pets.com and Flooz both had office space here once..."
Maybe an AR app with overlays of old signage ... makes me wonder if anyone's done much with AR with historical data. Could be neat.
Perhaps they could be a sort of memorial highway, every few miles "sponsored"/"in memorial of" a different dead company... so all the employees can be reminded what might await them at the the other end of their commute.
The best way to invest is with information you don't have until the future.
Does Apple give anyone that's not a senior executive nearly that many shares? If they do, I need to go return a recruiter call immediately.
It's absolutely within the range of possibility, even for an individual contributor.
Can anyone elaborate why this is getting downvoted?
[deleted]
>“the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.”
A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is completely incompatible with Apple.
A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is completely incompatible with Apple.
Automation in macOS appears to be remaining as strong as ever. What makes you think it has suffered?
In fact, I believe macOS gives you more control than Windows.
In fact, I believe macOS gives you more control than Windows.
As strong as ever? Script Editor is practically abandoned...
The guide about providing scripting definitions (making your program accessible via AppleScript) was last updated in 2008.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Co...
The guide about providing scripting definitions (making your program accessible via AppleScript) was last updated in 2008.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Co...
It received an entire new language, and it still works, how is it abandoned?
The state and currency of Apple's documentation is a different matter altogether. It's seriously outdated in a lot of places and in a need of a major overhaul.
The state and currency of Apple's documentation is a different matter altogether. It's seriously outdated in a lot of places and in a need of a major overhaul.
Entire new language? You mean JavaScript for Automation in 2014? Or Scripting Bridge for Objective-C (and Python, Ruby, etc) in 2008?
Protip: What matters is not the number of technologies in one's Product Management portfolio, but the number of new users - aka customers - those technologies have added to the company's revenue streams.
Sal's product management portfolio has more new products in it than those new products have users. Every new product he's shipped has fallen on its arse, either because nobody ever bothered to sell or support it to customers, or because it was a broken useless POS that was DOA out the box.
Lovely bloke, amazing user evangelist, most hopeless product manager ever. The only question you should ask is why didn't Apple think to sack the man years sooner!? Automation deserves better!
Protip: What matters is not the number of technologies in one's Product Management portfolio, but the number of new users - aka customers - those technologies have added to the company's revenue streams.
Sal's product management portfolio has more new products in it than those new products have users. Every new product he's shipped has fallen on its arse, either because nobody ever bothered to sell or support it to customers, or because it was a broken useless POS that was DOA out the box.
Lovely bloke, amazing user evangelist, most hopeless product manager ever. The only question you should ask is why didn't Apple think to sack the man years sooner!? Automation deserves better!
The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. I have a strong premonition that JavaScript was added to potentially discontinue AppleScript. The revision history of the AppleScript docs is the third reason.
> The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade.
In what ways does it need changing? What improvements do you have in mind? I can only think of autocomplete, but the object browser/dictionary helps in its stead.
In what ways does it need changing? What improvements do you have in mind? I can only think of autocomplete, but the object browser/dictionary helps in its stead.
I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling me, but without being pedantic, it's a learning environment that lacks standard IDE features, including such basic things as line numbers and a context click for go to function definition. As far as I'm aware there is no third party package ecosystem for extending its limitations either.
They'd need to rewrite the AppleScript compiler and interpreter to support all that. It's pretty much a non-starter for building full modern tooling on top.
There just aren't the hooks in either AppleScript or the OSA component API (which is the middleware that apps like Script Editor have to call through to interact with AS itself) to drop those in. And why would Apple invest a ton of capital doing that when there aren't any users for it anyway!
...
Re. the missing library ecosystem in particular: AS didn't even have a built-in module loader until 10.9! And having landed that, the AS team didn't even bother to provide any standard libraries to go with it! How do they expect a full third-party ecosystem to spring up all around it overnight when they don't even bother to show AS users what the point of the damn thing is?
See also: openradar.appspot.com/28465563, which is my third (and absolutely final) attempt to bootstrap either a third-party package ecosystem (impossible in a culture that doesn't even know what a "library" is or why they should care) or even just get a basic AS stdlib bundled in macOS so I don't have copy-n-paste a goddamn TIDs-handler every single time I want to do a simple find-and-replace. Feel free to dupe it, or even just d/l the libs for your own personal use—it's still far better AS code than ever emitted from Apple Inc's own walls.
There just aren't the hooks in either AppleScript or the OSA component API (which is the middleware that apps like Script Editor have to call through to interact with AS itself) to drop those in. And why would Apple invest a ton of capital doing that when there aren't any users for it anyway!
...
Re. the missing library ecosystem in particular: AS didn't even have a built-in module loader until 10.9! And having landed that, the AS team didn't even bother to provide any standard libraries to go with it! How do they expect a full third-party ecosystem to spring up all around it overnight when they don't even bother to show AS users what the point of the damn thing is?
See also: openradar.appspot.com/28465563, which is my third (and absolutely final) attempt to bootstrap either a third-party package ecosystem (impossible in a culture that doesn't even know what a "library" is or why they should care) or even just get a basic AS stdlib bundled in macOS so I don't have copy-n-paste a goddamn TIDs-handler every single time I want to do a simple find-and-replace. Feel free to dupe it, or even just d/l the libs for your own personal use—it's still far better AS code than ever emitted from Apple Inc's own walls.
Some way for debugging scripts. Even a basic "print to console" function is lacking.
It has been broken in the Finder since Mavericks. I've filed radars, but its not as strong as ever.
I believe your parent was talking more from a hardware perspective.
Both hardware and Stallmanism. I'm a showered and beardless dirty free software hippie.
> was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons. Consequently.
Business reasons to not have a head of automation for an Operating System? It truly could be the case, but honestly I'd be ok if someone investigated companies like Apple to see if there's an illegal pattern of letting go people over the age of 40.
Business reasons to not have a head of automation for an Operating System? It truly could be the case, but honestly I'd be ok if someone investigated companies like Apple to see if there's an illegal pattern of letting go people over the age of 40.
I can't speak for the Apple of today, but when I left Apple in 2010 there were more wizened, "gray-beard" programmers working for Apple than at probably all the SOMA startups combined. Of all the things you could accuse Apple of (and there are plenty), I think ageism has got to be near the bottom of that list.
Hey, 20 years come get your reduction prize. This guys salary is probably a rounding error on a spreadsheet but what he knows about Apple in any line of their business would be worth the money. Just a shame.
This is a great way to scare pro users after a lukewarm reaction to the latest MacBook Pro's.
"UNIX CLI (shell, python, ruby, perl), System Services, Apple Events (JavaScript, AppleScript, AppleScriptObj-C, Scripting Bridge), Automator, Apple Configurator (AppleScript, Automator), and Application scripting support in Photos, iWork, Finder, Mail, and other Apple applications."
I can speculate why Apple has made this decision. Notice the amount of siri integration into macOS? This theoretically makes automation by code the black sheep in Apples grand plan. Do away with code, push voice.
I can speculate why Apple has made this decision. Notice the amount of siri integration into macOS? This theoretically makes automation by code the black sheep in Apples grand plan. Do away with code, push voice.
The part that really scares me there is "UNIX CLI (shell)". Does that mean Terminal itself could be about to go? I'm sure Apple could explain it away with "there are many third-party offerings like Cathode & Prompt for the handful that need it".
Yup, that's exactly what my company's open plan office is missing. 50 people muttering aloud at their computers all day.
"The integration of an at least partially voice-controlled intelligent digital assistant into a desktop, laptop, and/or tablet computer environment provides additional capabilities to the digital assistant, and enhances the usability and capabilities of the desktop, laptop, and/or tablet computer."
"Intelligent Digital Assistant in a Desktop Environment", 2013 Apple patent ~ http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
"Intelligent Digital Assistant in a Desktop Environment", 2013 Apple patent ~ http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
I can't wait for the asshole 50 feet away whose quiet voice sounds like a hotdog guy at a baseball game yells "Hey Siri" and 30 computers respond.
And accidentally automating each other's machines...
Voice control is not automation, you just replace using your mouse/keyboard to perform actions with using your voice to perform them, but you still have to do each one. Automation is having the computer perform multiple seemingly disconnected tasks one after the other without supervision. How you start the automated workflow is irrelevant.
Unfortunately they have been neglecting this aspect of the Mac for a long time. It's a real shame because it used to be a solid advantage of the Mac over other OSs. Recently I looked to see if Automator is still on my system, I was surprised it's still included. They clearly don't care about this part of macOS and it's such a shame.
It's there, it works, you haven't looked at it in years. Apple may or may not care about it, but apparently neither do you.
Automation probably gets us excited about ideas to streamline our lives, but nobody ever gets around to it. I certainly hope it remains well-supported because there are people who actually need it (accessibility comes to mind). Also because I did actually just use it in a toy project.
Automation probably gets us excited about ideas to streamline our lives, but nobody ever gets around to it. I certainly hope it remains well-supported because there are people who actually need it (accessibility comes to mind). Also because I did actually just use it in a toy project.
It can't be all that important to you if you couldn't even remember if it was installed.
Remember this the next time you hear corporations complain about ruthless employees who are willing to jump ship for mere money.
Does that mean that he was effectively fired? I can't help but think there must be some additional context as to why he was terminated and not transitioned to another role (assuming my understanding of the situation is correct). Is Apple really doing that bad?
It seems very unlikely to me that this was anything personal or age related. However, Sal was highly identified with his role. He's an absolutely awesome guy who lives and breathes user automation every waking minute. Personally, I'd find it hard to imagine him in a different role, and maybe Apple mgt was suffering from a similar failure in imagination — or maybe Sal himself just wasn't interested in a different role.
maybe he automated his own position
My understanding is that Apple rarely "fires" people. It was explained to me that they merely suggest it's time to move on. Repeatedly.
Why would you think that? It's relatively uncommon for companies to transition employees when they decide to remove whole business functions.
Apple famously renames positions in order to 'softly' get rid of an employee. That's why I would personally think along similar lines.
"famously"? Could you name a few cases? I've heard of this practice in other companies, but never at Apple.
It seems stupid that they just throw away talented people. And then they pay millions for talented people through buying startups.
Penny-wise and pound-foolish perhaps, but Apple absolutely doesn't have a cash flow problem that would get in the way of any flavor of these decisions.
Well, buying failing startups because of their engineers also helps pad exec investments in those startups.
Keeping an employee does not.
Keeping an employee does not.
Rarely if ever are the laid-off people talented in the same area that those who are acquihired are.
people have different talents and skills that are valued differently over time.
Sad day. Sal is and has been the biggest cheerleader for macOS automation technologies ever.
What a shame. I really thought we'd see some interesting developments in the macOS automation space, as only a couple of years ago JS was introduced as a scripting language alongside AScript. However, this is worrying as there are so so many individuals who rely on bespoke, fine-grained task automation (and not just glossy consumer apps) to use their Mac productively.
I'm quite happy with hammerspoon for MacOS GUI automation. I'm using it to collect the screenshots for a hyper(term) theme gallery (https://hyperthemes.matthi.coffee).
Although now I'm not sure how much hammerspoon relies on the official APIs.
Although now I'm not sure how much hammerspoon relies on the official APIs.
Two things:
1. You have "https:/" (<-- one "/") in the hyper.io link
2. "server can't find hyper.io: SERVFAIL"
I'm interested in terminals, but this has an impossible-to-Google name (for obvious reasons).
The themes look really cool though!
1. You have "https:/" (<-- one "/") in the hyper.io link
2. "server can't find hyper.io: SERVFAIL"
I'm interested in terminals, but this has an impossible-to-Google name (for obvious reasons).
The themes look really cool though!
I think JavaScript was added and AppleScript Editor renamed to Script Editor as Apple's hint that AppleScript is a dead language.
Automator is what it is (I don't use it), but we have to be realistic in admitting it never really caught on. Even drag-and-drop GUI programming is too intimidating to the average user.
I hope this is not a harbinger of Apple giving up on user automation entirely.
Automator is what it is (I don't use it), but we have to be realistic in admitting it never really caught on. Even drag-and-drop GUI programming is too intimidating to the average user.
I hope this is not a harbinger of Apple giving up on user automation entirely.
Apple is intensely focused on monetization of anything now that the iPhone is turning into a more mature (i.e. Lower growth) product.
Do you really expect that a company that is monetizing power brick extension cables in $3000 laptops and USB cables in $700 phones is going to continue to give away the store with things that deliver high value at low cost?
Do you really expect that a company that is monetizing power brick extension cables in $3000 laptops and USB cables in $700 phones is going to continue to give away the store with things that deliver high value at low cost?
[deleted]
Sad to hear about Sal's departure (I'm not going to speculate on the reasoning).
What I guessing as I read into this is that Apple is likely moving towards cloud-based everything, and de-emphasizing OS-level functionality that's not tied to cloud.
What I guessing as I read into this is that Apple is likely moving towards cloud-based everything, and de-emphasizing OS-level functionality that's not tied to cloud.
Apple's plan for the future does not include Mac or MacOS. They've been treating macOS as a second-tier OS for years and have been barely updating it. And when they do update it, they just backport some iOS features to it. You can also tell that macOS is not a priority because security updates for same kernel issues always come weeks after they've been fixed on iOS.
And let's not even get into Mac hardware and how there's no more true Pro options and how rarely they even update them.
Cook's infamous quote says it all about the future of Mac:
>“I think if you’re looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?” – Tim Cook, talking about the iPad Pro
Requiem for the Mac is in order.
And let's not even get into Mac hardware and how there's no more true Pro options and how rarely they even update them.
Cook's infamous quote says it all about the future of Mac:
>“I think if you’re looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?” – Tim Cook, talking about the iPad Pro
Requiem for the Mac is in order.
I am not entirely convinced that Apple has a coherent plan for the future, at least one that is stable and not shifting every few months.
I mean, they clearly had some sort of iCar focus which they just shifted away from, which puts them back squarely on iOS devices. But smartphones aren't the growth market that they were a few years ago. Unless they can find some sort of new market to expand into, they're not going to be able to be the same sort of asymptotic-growth-fueled company they were since the iPod came out.
Either they need another iPod / iPhone / iPad (and I'm not entirely sure that the iPad deserves to be there, next to the prior two, but it kept things going for a while), or they have to really retrench to be a stable-market company, serving the upgrade-every-few-years premium smartphone buyer.
I mean, they clearly had some sort of iCar focus which they just shifted away from, which puts them back squarely on iOS devices. But smartphones aren't the growth market that they were a few years ago. Unless they can find some sort of new market to expand into, they're not going to be able to be the same sort of asymptotic-growth-fueled company they were since the iPod came out.
Either they need another iPod / iPhone / iPad (and I'm not entirely sure that the iPad deserves to be there, next to the prior two, but it kept things going for a while), or they have to really retrench to be a stable-market company, serving the upgrade-every-few-years premium smartphone buyer.
If one believes that Apple has always been an integration leader rather than a technology leader, then the idea follows that there may exist points in time where the technological state-of-the-art and consumer desires simply have no overlap that allows for new products on the level of the iPod/iPhone/iPad.
Apple apparently believed smartcars were there, but I'd guess their implementation of the technology wasn't hitting targets. It does still seems bizarre they aren't pushing VR/AR given their creative-professional heavy userbase.
Apple apparently believed smartcars were there, but I'd guess their implementation of the technology wasn't hitting targets. It does still seems bizarre they aren't pushing VR/AR given their creative-professional heavy userbase.
I often read that macOS is doomed because it is obviously understaffed and not aimed at pros anymore. Maybe. But I don't agree that the iPad is in better shape (as Tim Cook's comment might suggest).
iOS 10 on iPad Pro has been just as buggy as macOS 10.12 on my Mac, but nobody even mentions iCloud failures anymore, or glitchy layouts after rotating the device (hello status bar??).
iOS 10 also hasn't brought any new "pro-ness" to the iPad. Most updates have felt like "me-too" releases next to the iPhone (except for iOS 9 with split screen and Pencil support).
Depending on which analytics site you ask, Apple has cut off ~35% of deployed iPads from updates this fall, which means that iPad app developers can't be smug about fragmentation anymore. It's also hard to look down on AppKit as the framework that hasn't aged well next to the complicated monster that UIKit has become (compared to iOS 5, sigh).
Not to mention that tablet sales have slowed down, and both current iPad models (Pro 9.7" and 12.9") are too expensive to buy on a whim.
If Apple has a plan for the future, then I don't see it on the horizon yet.
iOS 10 on iPad Pro has been just as buggy as macOS 10.12 on my Mac, but nobody even mentions iCloud failures anymore, or glitchy layouts after rotating the device (hello status bar??).
iOS 10 also hasn't brought any new "pro-ness" to the iPad. Most updates have felt like "me-too" releases next to the iPhone (except for iOS 9 with split screen and Pencil support).
Depending on which analytics site you ask, Apple has cut off ~35% of deployed iPads from updates this fall, which means that iPad app developers can't be smug about fragmentation anymore. It's also hard to look down on AppKit as the framework that hasn't aged well next to the complicated monster that UIKit has become (compared to iOS 5, sigh).
Not to mention that tablet sales have slowed down, and both current iPad models (Pro 9.7" and 12.9") are too expensive to buy on a whim.
If Apple has a plan for the future, then I don't see it on the horizon yet.
"PC" in Apple lingo refers to Windows machines.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/cook-why-would-y...
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/cook-why-would-y...
You're not wrong about "PC", but Cook was pretty clearly talking about a larger market shift away from laptops and desktops:
> Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones.
I don't really buy the downplaying of the "many, many people" wording in the linked blog post. I think the fact that Cook was silent about Mac while still bothering to mention "other than their phones" is a kind of statement in itself.
> Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones.
I don't really buy the downplaying of the "many, many people" wording in the linked blog post. I think the fact that Cook was silent about Mac while still bothering to mention "other than their phones" is a kind of statement in itself.
But does that make any sense? Why would people not need PCs but need Macs?
To sync/backup and write code for their iOS devices? Actually the real answer is to avoid Microsoft.
Microsoft - remove telemetry and you'll have me back.
Microsoft - remove telemetry and you'll have me back.
That's not a big enough market worth addressing though - Most people of course don't mind Microsoft at all. And given just how sweet they're making Windows for developers I suspect less and less people will mind them.
Well what machines are they going to be making all the apps on then? You really think iOS will overtake?
I expect Xcode for iOS (or whatever they call it) to make its debut next year. It might come as a "lite" version or something like that but an app that allows you to make iOS app with iOS is something I'd bet a lot of money on.
Apple's 'Swift Playgrounds' for iOS was their first step towards turning iOS into a dev platform.
Apple's 'Swift Playgrounds' for iOS was their first step towards turning iOS into a dev platform.
Swift Playgrounds isn't a development environment, it's a teaching environment.
Yes, and? It still compiles Swift code. Expect Xcode for iOS at WWDC2017.
And, the existence of a teaching environment in no way indicates that Xcode is being ported to iOS. Do not expect Xcode for iOS at WWDC2017.
>Do not expect Xcode for iOS at WWDC2017.
Saved for future claim chowder. Just watch... something that makes apps on iPad is coming. They might not call it Xcode but something's definitely coming.
Saved for future claim chowder. Just watch... something that makes apps on iPad is coming. They might not call it Xcode but something's definitely coming.
Or they have been treating macOS as a mature OS where there is little space for the revolution.
Except that part of "barely touching" is not really true.
> You can also tell that macOS is not a priority because
> security updates for same kernel issues always come weeks
> after they've been fixed on iOS.
> Or you can tell that iOS has much larger user base and hence the priority for security fixes.
Yeah because that single guy that needs to code all security patches has to finish iOS first before he goes to another building to work on macOS?
We are often discussing (me included) Apple moves like they have very little resources to do anything. Then I think again and d'oh.
Yeah because that single guy that needs to code all security patches has to finish iOS first before he goes to another building to work on macOS?
We are often discussing (me included) Apple moves like they have very little resources to do anything. Then I think again and d'oh.
AKAIK Apple no longer has a separate MacOS group. You could interpret this as a good or bad sign -- I interpret it positively. The Mac folks can develop drivers or whatever they need but core tech (e.g. GCD) need no longer start on one platform.
Ultimately, all the various *OS functions report to the same senior vice president. However, there still are teams that predominantly do macOS, iOS, etc, and there always have been engineers who worked on multiple platforms. Historically, the barriers have mostly been against porting iOS technology to macOS, but that hasn't been an issue in several years.
He might be married though.
Are you telling me that the richest and most valuable company in the world can't coordinate security patches of two of its biggest OSes that share a lot of kernel code?
Remember when one of the richest and most valuable companies in the world couldn't properly implement the HTML/CSS specs for over a decade?
You can also tell that macOS is not a priority
...
OS has much larger user base and hence the priority
Didn't you just repeat what he said?
...
OS has much larger user base and hence the priority
Didn't you just repeat what he said?
Well perhaps they can get Xcode on iPad Pro!
[deleted]
A. Correct. I joined Apple in January of 1997, almost twenty years ago, because of my profound belief that “the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” That credo remains my truth to this day. Recently, I was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons. Consequently, I am no longer employed by Apple Inc. But, I still believe my credo to be as true today as ever.
Because who needs or expects anything remotely 'pro' at Apple any more?