The Bitter Fight Over the Benefits of Bilingualism(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
The Bitter Fight Over the Benefits of Bilingualism
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/02/the-battle-over-bilingualism/462114/?single_page=true
8 comments
Another example of the reproducibility problem in psych studies. I really think every study should be registered ahead of time. Negative and mixed results are just as important.
OK. So there is no executive function advantage. But so far no one has seen a disadvantage either. Right? Since no one would argue that knowing an extra language is not useful, I wonder why this "bitterness" matters.
> But so far no one has seen a disadvantage either. Right?
No, researchers have found disadvantages to bilingualism. Bilinguals tend to know fewer words in their first language than monolinguals [1]. Bilinguals also experience more tip-of-the-tongue moments [2,3] and are slower in picture-naming tasks than monolinguals [2].
[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/life-bilingual/201306/d...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_of_the_tongue#Effects_of_b...
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862226/
No, researchers have found disadvantages to bilingualism. Bilinguals tend to know fewer words in their first language than monolinguals [1]. Bilinguals also experience more tip-of-the-tongue moments [2,3] and are slower in picture-naming tasks than monolinguals [2].
[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/life-bilingual/201306/d...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_of_the_tongue#Effects_of_b...
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862226/
So what?
Monolinguals have less data to process. Slower processing is a natural result of having more code to run. Multilinguals could simply practice quick retrieval if they need to optimize for such a specific environment. I will gladly trade needing to add that practice, if I would ever find myself with an evolutionary pressure to act quickly and monolingually in such an odd environment as that test, in favor of having multiple analytical frameworks and communication means, which I find extremely well suited for this complex world I find myself in today.
For vocabulary size, I would greatly appreciate any interesting correlations. By itself, it seems like a measure without any use, because number of words and depth of understanding seem unrelated, imho.. Number of concepts and number of connections between concepts... now that seems interesting.. something which multiple languages would actually help :)
Monolinguals have less data to process. Slower processing is a natural result of having more code to run. Multilinguals could simply practice quick retrieval if they need to optimize for such a specific environment. I will gladly trade needing to add that practice, if I would ever find myself with an evolutionary pressure to act quickly and monolingually in such an odd environment as that test, in favor of having multiple analytical frameworks and communication means, which I find extremely well suited for this complex world I find myself in today.
For vocabulary size, I would greatly appreciate any interesting correlations. By itself, it seems like a measure without any use, because number of words and depth of understanding seem unrelated, imho.. Number of concepts and number of connections between concepts... now that seems interesting.. something which multiple languages would actually help :)
__cato is just pointing out that there are disadvantages, since the comment he's responding to isn't aware of any. In fact, before their comment, I wasn't aware there were disadvantages, all I'd heard is that there were advantages to being bilingual. You many think these are small things, but they're interesting and they're backed up by studies.
You guys both make good points, and I appreciate you standing up for this new angle. It makes for a fuller picture of our neurological anatomy and psychological processes.
As our minds grow to handle more centrally important use cases, like cross-cultural communication and more in-depth, language-aided analysis, let alone clear communication, we need to also intelligently engineer appropriate optimizations to handle inherent slow downs. This seems like good places to pick up some useful approaches:
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RulesOfOptimization
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ProfileBeforeOptimizing
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OptimizationPattern
As our minds grow to handle more centrally important use cases, like cross-cultural communication and more in-depth, language-aided analysis, let alone clear communication, we need to also intelligently engineer appropriate optimizations to handle inherent slow downs. This seems like good places to pick up some useful approaches:
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RulesOfOptimization
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ProfileBeforeOptimizing
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OptimizationPattern
>Monolinguals have less data to process
and Bilingual data is highly repetitive. And not every concept is useful - what use are german gendered pronouns? Add in that fact that as a tool for communication, you won't be able to use you full vocabulary everywhere.
In addition, seems like there is an obvious difficulty wrt incompatible grammars.
There's nothing preventing you expanding you current vocabulary in your native language (jargon) - why do you need to learn a new language?
and Bilingual data is highly repetitive. And not every concept is useful - what use are german gendered pronouns? Add in that fact that as a tool for communication, you won't be able to use you full vocabulary everywhere.
In addition, seems like there is an obvious difficulty wrt incompatible grammars.
There's nothing preventing you expanding you current vocabulary in your native language (jargon) - why do you need to learn a new language?
> Bilingual data is highly repetitive
That depends on which pairs someone has and which concepts they (re/dis/_cross_)connect to understand something. For instance, Spanish and Portuguese (a common combo, both stemming from Latin) and Hebrew and Arabic (another common combo, both stemming from Semitic languages) provide less cultural variation and thus conceptual synergies than when someone cross-pollinates them.
> (2) And not every concept is useful - (1) what use [is] [grammatical gender]?
(1) It gives a window into how each culture understands a given field and Universe overall, eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_classes#Common_criteria_f... . (2) It may get too cold or too hot one day, so changing your houses' windows' degree of openness may help you with your current homeostatic needs... welding them into that place, even if that change makes a huge difference, probably wouldn't work out long term.. A simple stick of a suitable height, or none at all, or perhaps a counter balancing weight, will work much better.
> Add in that fact that as a tool for communication, you won't be able to use you full vocabulary everywhere.
Perhaps it would make sense to prune our English vocabulary. After all, less is more, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If you regularly add new tools to perform previously unforeseen functions in software you use\write, then perhaps your optimizations for these specific features comes at a cost of generally misunderstanding software and information structures\informatic processes. It doesn't necessarily take more to do more.
> In addition, seems like there is an obvious difficulty wrt incompatible grammars.
Luckily we have two hands, so we can easily hold on to two branches (as long as we have them within reach). Even if one bears one kind of fruit and another a different one, simply remember how to swing back and forth and you can get fat and happy with your varied sets of friends and fruits. :D
> There's nothing preventing you expanding you current vocabulary in your native language (jargon) - why do you need to learn a new language?
C'est si bon
Lovers say that in France
... http://artists.letssingit.com/louis-armstrong-lyrics-cest-si...
That depends on which pairs someone has and which concepts they (re/dis/_cross_)connect to understand something. For instance, Spanish and Portuguese (a common combo, both stemming from Latin) and Hebrew and Arabic (another common combo, both stemming from Semitic languages) provide less cultural variation and thus conceptual synergies than when someone cross-pollinates them.
> (2) And not every concept is useful - (1) what use [is] [grammatical gender]?
(1) It gives a window into how each culture understands a given field and Universe overall, eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_classes#Common_criteria_f... . (2) It may get too cold or too hot one day, so changing your houses' windows' degree of openness may help you with your current homeostatic needs... welding them into that place, even if that change makes a huge difference, probably wouldn't work out long term.. A simple stick of a suitable height, or none at all, or perhaps a counter balancing weight, will work much better.
> Add in that fact that as a tool for communication, you won't be able to use you full vocabulary everywhere.
Perhaps it would make sense to prune our English vocabulary. After all, less is more, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If you regularly add new tools to perform previously unforeseen functions in software you use\write, then perhaps your optimizations for these specific features comes at a cost of generally misunderstanding software and information structures\informatic processes. It doesn't necessarily take more to do more.
> In addition, seems like there is an obvious difficulty wrt incompatible grammars.
Luckily we have two hands, so we can easily hold on to two branches (as long as we have them within reach). Even if one bears one kind of fruit and another a different one, simply remember how to swing back and forth and you can get fat and happy with your varied sets of friends and fruits. :D
> There's nothing preventing you expanding you current vocabulary in your native language (jargon) - why do you need to learn a new language?
C'est si bon
Lovers say that in France
... http://artists.letssingit.com/louis-armstrong-lyrics-cest-si...
> That depends on which pairs
Portuguese and Spanish have more in common than many other latin-derived languages. Again, two similar languages, slightly different words for the same things... Most languages will have a basic set of concepts in common, and will have different words for each.
> (1) It gives a window into how each culture understands a given field and Universe overall
And be more interested in examples of this than analogies. If one culture say "get in the bath/shower" and another "get on the bath/shower" (ala. "get on a train") what understanding does it give us? Could we not get the same understanding by reading linguistics books instead?..
> Perhaps it would make sense to prune our English vocabulary. After all, less is more, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts
less is more is an fashionable ideology in certain design circles, not a universal law. English is pretty idiomatic - that's where the missing words go. I don't think software analogies are useful here, natural languages are very less explicit than software tooling.
> Luckily we have two hands
o-k. Care to unpack that? this is an outright substitution of a sensible argument for a vague anology... How is confusion between incompatible grammer likely to make you fat and happy?
Portuguese and Spanish have more in common than many other latin-derived languages. Again, two similar languages, slightly different words for the same things... Most languages will have a basic set of concepts in common, and will have different words for each.
> (1) It gives a window into how each culture understands a given field and Universe overall
And be more interested in examples of this than analogies. If one culture say "get in the bath/shower" and another "get on the bath/shower" (ala. "get on a train") what understanding does it give us? Could we not get the same understanding by reading linguistics books instead?..
> Perhaps it would make sense to prune our English vocabulary. After all, less is more, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts
less is more is an fashionable ideology in certain design circles, not a universal law. English is pretty idiomatic - that's where the missing words go. I don't think software analogies are useful here, natural languages are very less explicit than software tooling.
> Luckily we have two hands
o-k. Care to unpack that? this is an outright substitution of a sensible argument for a vague anology... How is confusion between incompatible grammer likely to make you fat and happy?
> Portuguese and Spanish have common...
I used "cross-connect" and "cross-pollinate" in that point. How could it seem like I advised pairing two similar languages(' "data")? Perhaps you could lightly shake your chair or do an Irish step dance or a Sufi whirl as your reread that point to see what I meant..
> [interested in examples of how each culture understands a given field and Universe overall, instead of analogies]
Hold on while I "pick my jaw up off the floor".. Shared analogical perspective makes 80% (off hand estimate) of anything above a bare level of expression possible, using conceptual metaphors. When we say "falling in love", "taking a shot in the dark", "flying by the seat of your pants", "shooting from the hip", "feathering your nest", "both sides of the same coin", "where your bread is buttered", on and on and on... we use bridges, which our conceptual ancestors and contemporaries built between what they already experienced and what life threw their way, by seeing some relationship across seemingly unrelated constructs and reusing much older words in innovative combos to make phrases so that they can convey rich meaning, layer cakes, each with foundations, interesting confections, and occasional icings, if you will.. Look at each of them again and plumb the depths of your mind for memories with each word's meaning and also its historical origin and significance. Each of those things happened where they did for whom they did. In other cultures some of these things happened similarly, some very differently, some not at all, etc. If you jump to a belief that these can translate directly or potentially even poetically then you completely miss the boat. You need to experience life in a matching way, among matching "conceptual relatives", and more, to make the words mean what they mean to fellow speakers and listeners as what they mean to you.
I hope with English expressions alone and this level of verbosity I hit the nail on the head for you, because mapping this into a cross-cultural scenery with useful demos makes a combinatoric explosion in my mind :-) . Perhaps you'll see what I mean through your own travels.. And if I made it more concrete with my own found constructs, then that might tangle your own yarn while you spin your delicate fibers into strong spools that you can weave into your own tapestry of rich colors and design.
> Could we not get the same understanding by reading linguistics books instead?
Just like you asked for a second ago, examples are what do it. You can study patterns and principles; without experiencing it, you miss what it is. This reminds me of what Feynman said in The Pleasure of Finding Things Out, about what things are called versus what they are, and the ___Chinese___ proverb, "Tell me, I’ll forget // Show me, I’ll remember // Involve me, I’ll understand". Reading isn't __________________. It never was. It never will be. Only you can fill in that blank.
> [I don't think analogies are useful]
I exaggerated your quote, since if you would hesitate to pool your concepts somewhere then you might do so everywhere... I definitely go overboard with my analogies, then again, I like swimming. (~* does he really mean he likes swimming?.. weren't we also talking about analogies?.. what does it mean to swim?.. *~)
> How is confusion between incompatible [grammars] likely to make you fat and happy?
Can you hold a pear and a pineapple at the same time? Can you eat them at the same time, or do you need to put one down and pick up another tool first? One simply needs rinsing before eating, one needs peeling and slicing. Two hands, two tools, two tastes. (mmm... fruit salad)
Context switches require a mental jump. ..This dance we have here makes me smile and cry together. Beauty, like in this case with metaphors, needs eyes to see it. Words tend to make it vanish. Subtlety might seem vague, I guess, when you want something to behave differently from its own nature.
If your eyes can hold onto an image of that pear tree and that pineapple plant after you've picked from them and walked away, then thorny fruits might make more sense to you when you see them growing on other grounds. And plump bottomed, thin skinned delights might show you even sweeter tastes long after you've finished the last bite.
To build mental bridges over the depths of your mind, between two fertile fields that _will_ connect beyond their original bounds, you need to align your well-oriented sight on each of their respective sources through what makes one thing similar to another, the bridge that makes understanding commute, then you can connect them using the same type of duct (one inlet connection type, one channel path's flow, and one outflow connection type). Set up the scene, and you can fit each piece into its jagged or smooth placement. Turn, twist, flip, shake, etc, as needed.
Grammars areLike fruits inThat they can both give sweet supplies of nourishment (one materially, one non-materially), especiallyWhile in an environment where capably switching back and forth to use them both isLike how a primate can swing between canopies to get those fruits and whatever else he wants there (ie enjoyment of eating each with friends who hang out there). It goes deeper...
(^A passing cloud comes in on a foresightly breeze with warm whispers, "take good aim, friend".)
> Most languages will have a basic set of concepts in common, and will have different words for each.
Echos of this misunderstanding ripple down below layers we stand on while many an eye see a vanilla sky where there is mostly soil and dirt.
I used "cross-connect" and "cross-pollinate" in that point. How could it seem like I advised pairing two similar languages(' "data")? Perhaps you could lightly shake your chair or do an Irish step dance or a Sufi whirl as your reread that point to see what I meant..
> [interested in examples of how each culture understands a given field and Universe overall, instead of analogies]
Hold on while I "pick my jaw up off the floor".. Shared analogical perspective makes 80% (off hand estimate) of anything above a bare level of expression possible, using conceptual metaphors. When we say "falling in love", "taking a shot in the dark", "flying by the seat of your pants", "shooting from the hip", "feathering your nest", "both sides of the same coin", "where your bread is buttered", on and on and on... we use bridges, which our conceptual ancestors and contemporaries built between what they already experienced and what life threw their way, by seeing some relationship across seemingly unrelated constructs and reusing much older words in innovative combos to make phrases so that they can convey rich meaning, layer cakes, each with foundations, interesting confections, and occasional icings, if you will.. Look at each of them again and plumb the depths of your mind for memories with each word's meaning and also its historical origin and significance. Each of those things happened where they did for whom they did. In other cultures some of these things happened similarly, some very differently, some not at all, etc. If you jump to a belief that these can translate directly or potentially even poetically then you completely miss the boat. You need to experience life in a matching way, among matching "conceptual relatives", and more, to make the words mean what they mean to fellow speakers and listeners as what they mean to you.
I hope with English expressions alone and this level of verbosity I hit the nail on the head for you, because mapping this into a cross-cultural scenery with useful demos makes a combinatoric explosion in my mind :-) . Perhaps you'll see what I mean through your own travels.. And if I made it more concrete with my own found constructs, then that might tangle your own yarn while you spin your delicate fibers into strong spools that you can weave into your own tapestry of rich colors and design.
> Could we not get the same understanding by reading linguistics books instead?
Just like you asked for a second ago, examples are what do it. You can study patterns and principles; without experiencing it, you miss what it is. This reminds me of what Feynman said in The Pleasure of Finding Things Out, about what things are called versus what they are, and the ___Chinese___ proverb, "Tell me, I’ll forget // Show me, I’ll remember // Involve me, I’ll understand". Reading isn't __________________. It never was. It never will be. Only you can fill in that blank.
> [I don't think analogies are useful]
I exaggerated your quote, since if you would hesitate to pool your concepts somewhere then you might do so everywhere... I definitely go overboard with my analogies, then again, I like swimming. (~* does he really mean he likes swimming?.. weren't we also talking about analogies?.. what does it mean to swim?.. *~)
> How is confusion between incompatible [grammars] likely to make you fat and happy?
Can you hold a pear and a pineapple at the same time? Can you eat them at the same time, or do you need to put one down and pick up another tool first? One simply needs rinsing before eating, one needs peeling and slicing. Two hands, two tools, two tastes. (mmm... fruit salad)
Context switches require a mental jump. ..This dance we have here makes me smile and cry together. Beauty, like in this case with metaphors, needs eyes to see it. Words tend to make it vanish. Subtlety might seem vague, I guess, when you want something to behave differently from its own nature.
If your eyes can hold onto an image of that pear tree and that pineapple plant after you've picked from them and walked away, then thorny fruits might make more sense to you when you see them growing on other grounds. And plump bottomed, thin skinned delights might show you even sweeter tastes long after you've finished the last bite.
To build mental bridges over the depths of your mind, between two fertile fields that _will_ connect beyond their original bounds, you need to align your well-oriented sight on each of their respective sources through what makes one thing similar to another, the bridge that makes understanding commute, then you can connect them using the same type of duct (one inlet connection type, one channel path's flow, and one outflow connection type). Set up the scene, and you can fit each piece into its jagged or smooth placement. Turn, twist, flip, shake, etc, as needed.
Grammars areLike fruits inThat they can both give sweet supplies of nourishment (one materially, one non-materially), especiallyWhile in an environment where capably switching back and forth to use them both isLike how a primate can swing between canopies to get those fruits and whatever else he wants there (ie enjoyment of eating each with friends who hang out there). It goes deeper...
(^A passing cloud comes in on a foresightly breeze with warm whispers, "take good aim, friend".)
> Most languages will have a basic set of concepts in common, and will have different words for each.
Echos of this misunderstanding ripple down below layers we stand on while many an eye see a vanilla sky where there is mostly soil and dirt.
Hmmm, I wasn't aware of any bitterness or fight over this either, just a recent increase in articles touting the benefits of it. Seems to me this is one of those "media manufactures fake outrage" articles.
The bitterness seems real:
> The debate has clearly become acrimonious. Paap says that he has been ignored; Bialystok feels she is being personally attacked. Perhaps, wrote Eric-Jan Wagenmakers from the University of Amsterdam, the two sides could form an “adversarial collaboration.” That is, they would work together to test the bilingual advantage once and for all, through a large study, perhaps involving many labs. The teams would pre-register all their experimental plans and agree to publish the results no matter what, so there could be no accusation of questionable research practices or publication bias. Then let the chips fall where they may. This approach has already been used to some success in other areas of psychology.
> Paap is up for it; Bialystok is not. “That’s not how science works: You don’t sign a contract to not change anything in your protocol as the research evolves,” she says. “And they’ve set up so many toxins in this area that no good collaboration can result.” Bak feels similarly. “How much would I win by working with someone who doesn’t understand the area and is already biased?”
> The debate has clearly become acrimonious. Paap says that he has been ignored; Bialystok feels she is being personally attacked. Perhaps, wrote Eric-Jan Wagenmakers from the University of Amsterdam, the two sides could form an “adversarial collaboration.” That is, they would work together to test the bilingual advantage once and for all, through a large study, perhaps involving many labs. The teams would pre-register all their experimental plans and agree to publish the results no matter what, so there could be no accusation of questionable research practices or publication bias. Then let the chips fall where they may. This approach has already been used to some success in other areas of psychology.
> Paap is up for it; Bialystok is not. “That’s not how science works: You don’t sign a contract to not change anything in your protocol as the research evolves,” she says. “And they’ve set up so many toxins in this area that no good collaboration can result.” Bak feels similarly. “How much would I win by working with someone who doesn’t understand the area and is already biased?”
A lot of researchers would disagree with the statement "That’s not how science works: You don’t sign a contract to not change anything in your protocol as the research evolves" You've got to complete the test using the protocol and hypotheses established at the outset. If you decide a change in protocol is required you wrap up the original test, report on the results, and then start a new test. Otherwise you end up with some combination of the issues described in A menagerie of messed up data analyses and how to avoid them[1]
[1] http://simplystatistics.org/2016/02/01/a-menagerie-of-messed...
[1] http://simplystatistics.org/2016/02/01/a-menagerie-of-messed...
Yes, from what I can tell, Bialystok is explicitly violating the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mertonian_norms, particularly with "How much would I win by ..." and denial of Skepticism.
> Bialystok is not. “That’s not how science works: You don’t sign a contract to not change anything in your protocol as the research evolves,” she says.
She's unfortunately right -- all too often protocol, hypotheses and analytical technique are changed to fit each other, reach a p-value of 0.05 and achieve publication.
For this reason among many there may indeed be value in sticking to original protocols and having to publish results. Negative and unclear results can be as useful as positive results, and what's ultimately published may end up less biased as well, which would be another plus.
She's unfortunately right -- all too often protocol, hypotheses and analytical technique are changed to fit each other, reach a p-value of 0.05 and achieve publication.
For this reason among many there may indeed be value in sticking to original protocols and having to publish results. Negative and unclear results can be as useful as positive results, and what's ultimately published may end up less biased as well, which would be another plus.
There is a very bitter fight over it.
In Quebec the law forces children to go through school in French. A great deal of tech companies have fled and a great deal of innovation in general has fled. No one would move to SV if their children were forced to suffer through school in a complete foreign language.
In Quebec the law forces children to go through school in French. A great deal of tech companies have fled and a great deal of innovation in general has fled. No one would move to SV if their children were forced to suffer through school in a complete foreign language.
The companies fled in the 90ies. Not really now. And it's only _public_ education that's in French, and only if neither parent has gone to an English school in Canada.
>Since no one would argue that knowing an extra language is not useful,
Why would no one argue that? If I am a person from Kansas I am never going to run into anyone who doesn't speak English. Where is the usefulness in learning any other language?
Why would no one argue that? If I am a person from Kansas I am never going to run into anyone who doesn't speak English. Where is the usefulness in learning any other language?
How did you determine that Kansas people will never in their lives encounter non-English speaking people? Are you asserting Kansas people do not ever travel and nobody visits Kansas and Kansas people could not possibly have a reason to talk to non-English people on the internet (for business or personal reasons)?
Knowing a language is more than knowing how to speak it, in the process of learning it you learn how the culture that created it thinks and acts. There are words that are exclusive to one language or the other and say a lot of the people who speak it.
Learning a language is, I think, as learning to play an instrument is more a cultural and leisure activity that might be useful sometime and helps to connect with other people and cultures.
Learning a language is, I think, as learning to play an instrument is more a cultural and leisure activity that might be useful sometime and helps to connect with other people and cultures.
Single data point anecdote: an acquaintance from Kansas met and married a Thai woman there and they moved to Thailand. Unlikely that he would have previously ever considered learning Thai as a second language, but he's trying hard to learn it now.
Just a funny anecdote. That is all.
Just a funny anecdote. That is all.
I have a friend in Kansas who runs a store and is learning some Spanish. It seems to be helpful with communicating with some of her customers.
It's been a few years since I last visited the US, but I remember being surprised at the number of Spanish billboards I saw and stores with signs saying "Se habla Español" across the states I visited.
It's been a few years since I last visited the US, but I remember being surprised at the number of Spanish billboards I saw and stores with signs saying "Se habla Español" across the states I visited.
Spanish is becoming more and more prevalent in the US. There are some places where speaking English is in the minority, especially in the Southwest.
I don't have a problem with it, except I took French and Japanese in school, not Spanish, so I only recognize a few dozen of the most common Spanish words and phrases.
And I can't keep up the language learning habit as an adult, as my Duolingo profile will attest.
I don't have a problem with it, except I took French and Japanese in school, not Spanish, so I only recognize a few dozen of the most common Spanish words and phrases.
And I can't keep up the language learning habit as an adult, as my Duolingo profile will attest.
What if you go on holiday abroad? What if you want to do a contract job for a Chinese/French/Spanish/South American/Japanese/German company? What if your company is selling something to a foreign company and they need someone to speak with their technical team that doesn't have a good English speaker?
Hell, what if you go on holiday to Florida, Texas, or California? You will definitely want enough Spanish to order from a food truck if you want to get the most out of your visit.
Presumably they also have the internet in Kansas, giving you potential access to all sorts of different languages.
[deleted]
I haven't been to Kansas lately, but I expect the prevalence of Spanish would be similar to most other states.
Plus, people do leave Kansas.
Plus, people do leave Kansas.
[deleted]
OK, there's not much benefit you then... as long as you spend the rest of your life in Kansas.
In Québec, a number of people believe that being bilingual is merely an excuse to not learn French, and thus they feel that bilingualism encroaches upon French. They reason that if you see a sign that is both in English and French, then you'll feel no need to learn French, and thus French would lose ground. Since there is English all around Québec, English is in no similar peril.
There may be some merit to this theory, in view of the fate of Welsh or Gaelic in the British Isles, or of French in Louisiana or the Canadian Maritimes. It may well be that Québec's stubbornness against English is the only thing that is keeping the language alive. Even so, I wish that true bilinguals, of which there are many, especially in the Montréal area, would not become the collateral damage of this fight.
There may be some merit to this theory, in view of the fate of Welsh or Gaelic in the British Isles, or of French in Louisiana or the Canadian Maritimes. It may well be that Québec's stubbornness against English is the only thing that is keeping the language alive. Even so, I wish that true bilinguals, of which there are many, especially in the Montréal area, would not become the collateral damage of this fight.
A question about learning French in Québec:
I'll soon be moving to Québec to start graduate studies at McGill. I've spent the past year living in Germany and have gotten the language down quite well because people are very friendly and willing to help. I haven't taken any German lessons, just going out for a Stammtisch and having some liquid courage really washes away the trepidation of making a blunder and you learn from your mistakes.
I would like to learn French while in Québec. Are the Québec people just as inviting as the Germans when it comes to a foreigner trying to learn their language?
I'll soon be moving to Québec to start graduate studies at McGill. I've spent the past year living in Germany and have gotten the language down quite well because people are very friendly and willing to help. I haven't taken any German lessons, just going out for a Stammtisch and having some liquid courage really washes away the trepidation of making a blunder and you learn from your mistakes.
I would like to learn French while in Québec. Are the Québec people just as inviting as the Germans when it comes to a foreigner trying to learn their language?
This is entirely anecdotal, however in my experience you will find that people in Montreal quite accommodating, especially if you are making a legitimate effort to speak French.
You won't find people to be quite as accommodating (in fact, people can be quite rude) in the smaller towns or areas outside of the major centers.
You won't find people to be quite as accommodating (in fact, people can be quite rude) in the smaller towns or areas outside of the major centers.
Yes.
As an 'Anglo' (actually of German origin), I've only had issues when Quebecers thought I was an actual Anglo and didn't make an effort to speak French. Once you speak a bit a bit of French and it's obvious you're trying they're generally happy to help. Occasionally I get unsolicited French lessons, which feels odd (once at the baker I had a case of 'you pronounced seigle wrong, repeat after me'..).
Although people may be switching to English once they notice the accent and the difficulty in communicating (although that probably happened a lot in Germany as well).
As an 'Anglo' (actually of German origin), I've only had issues when Quebecers thought I was an actual Anglo and didn't make an effort to speak French. Once you speak a bit a bit of French and it's obvious you're trying they're generally happy to help. Occasionally I get unsolicited French lessons, which feels odd (once at the baker I had a case of 'you pronounced seigle wrong, repeat after me'..).
Although people may be switching to English once they notice the accent and the difficulty in communicating (although that probably happened a lot in Germany as well).
you can easily live 100% english in montreal, no one will even try to make you feel different
just speak english
just speak english
> In Québec, a number of people believe that being bilingual is merely an excuse to not learn French, and thus they feel that bilingualism encroaches upon French.
That's a completely different meaning of bilingualism. The article is about people's bilingualism (so canadian speaking both english and french) not about bilingual signage.
That's a completely different meaning of bilingualism. The article is about people's bilingualism (so canadian speaking both english and french) not about bilingual signage.
Quebeckers against bilingualism don't see a real difference. In their view, signage or services (such as schools) in both languages endanger the status of French. At least, that's how I understand their position.
Again that's a different meaning of bilingualism, the article is about people fluent in multiple languages. I assume most Quebeckers are bilingual as is.
No. Most Quebeckers are not bilingual, and many of them do not want to be bilingual, as they believe that if they became bilingual, French would lose status.
They really do mean all meanings of bilingualism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_demographics_of_Quebe...
They really do mean all meanings of bilingualism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_demographics_of_Quebe...
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Wasting 10's of thousands of hours for millions of people is hardly 'free'.
Time is at a premium during childhood. I think many children resent having to spend time on something pointless.
I'm trilingual, and two of those are definitely not useful.
Opportunity cost is a disadvantage.
Being bilingual helped me understand English grammar in a way I wouldn't have otherwise. It also helped my writing skills immensely (IMO). Taking college junior/senior level French literature classes was extraordinarily difficult but rewarding. I did more work for my one French class than I did for five junior/senior level business classes (Finance/Accounting/MIS). It's why I eventually stopped, that and I realized I don't like evaluating literature in English, much less French (they didn't have business language classes at my Uni in the 1990s).
Sadly, this article seems like a twisted joke. Nearly every single non-"modern world" human with working legs speaks\spoke multiple languages, since in every direction you can find another potentially highly varied society living there. Primates have immense curiosity, and we generally like to socialize, even beyond our own familiar communities (innately at least). This inherently puts us among diverse environments, speakers, and interesting cultures (barring any violent opposition to free movement).
What would language skills have anything to do with this non-existent "executive system" anyway? (tfa mentions someone's guess about picking which language to use in any given moment.. something I've only ever seen novices and newcomers struggle with briefly, and only in conversation, not at all with internal dialogue.) I only resort to language when I need high level processing; and then having many angles of analysis can help enormously. When I need to focus on something, I do it as I envisioned or practiced and with kinaesthetic feedback (what other way is there?); language and other analytical tools inherently go another direction than working with my material environment. Fundamentally, these psychologists' messy model of language's relationship to localized brain functions in top-down systems falls flat on its face with this "executive function" concept mixing focus and inhibitory control with (yet another overly broad concept) "problem solving", which they then hold up as a sacrificial cost to something great.
What would language skills have anything to do with this non-existent "executive system" anyway? (tfa mentions someone's guess about picking which language to use in any given moment.. something I've only ever seen novices and newcomers struggle with briefly, and only in conversation, not at all with internal dialogue.) I only resort to language when I need high level processing; and then having many angles of analysis can help enormously. When I need to focus on something, I do it as I envisioned or practiced and with kinaesthetic feedback (what other way is there?); language and other analytical tools inherently go another direction than working with my material environment. Fundamentally, these psychologists' messy model of language's relationship to localized brain functions in top-down systems falls flat on its face with this "executive function" concept mixing focus and inhibitory control with (yet another overly broad concept) "problem solving", which they then hold up as a sacrificial cost to something great.
I think there is an elephant in the room here. There is no easy way to have a control subject.
Each person they test has a unique set of abilities and intelligence level.
My children are bilingual, and I know many other families that have children who are being brought up in a bilingual environment.
I have an example of a bilingual child that didn't say anything almost at all until they were 2.5 years old. My daughter has language skills that are advanced for her age in comparison to her monolingual peers of the same age. But she is just bright (parental bias I know). My younger son appears to be improving even faster, but then he has a bilingual older sibling, so that isn't a surprise.
The point is that it all depends on the person, as to how well they can adapt to a bilingual upbringing. They are so many factors involved, that it becomes impossible to categorically compare one person against another. Apples to oranges, every single time.
Each person they test has a unique set of abilities and intelligence level.
My children are bilingual, and I know many other families that have children who are being brought up in a bilingual environment.
I have an example of a bilingual child that didn't say anything almost at all until they were 2.5 years old. My daughter has language skills that are advanced for her age in comparison to her monolingual peers of the same age. But she is just bright (parental bias I know). My younger son appears to be improving even faster, but then he has a bilingual older sibling, so that isn't a surprise.
The point is that it all depends on the person, as to how well they can adapt to a bilingual upbringing. They are so many factors involved, that it becomes impossible to categorically compare one person against another. Apples to oranges, every single time.
My son is growing up bilingual. It's natural since mother and father have different first languages. I've been amazed since age 4 how easily he switches between the two languages. I'll be talking to him in English and he will turn to his mother and repeat the whole conversation in his other language without missing a beat. He is also picking up Mandarin from watching videos on YouTube.
I have no way of knowing if his "executive function" (ok, I'll go with that term) is better because of it. But learning to speak more than one language appears to be very easy for kids.
I have no way of knowing if his "executive function" (ok, I'll go with that term) is better because of it. But learning to speak more than one language appears to be very easy for kids.
From my understanding it's not the learning that's easier, it's the fact that the brain tunes itself to the local languages by a certain (early) age. I'd love to learn tonal languages but I have an extraordinarily hard time with them (Mandarin, Cantonese and Vietnamese). I've learned French, German, Italian and Spanish with very little difficulty.
Same for me with tonal language. At first I couldn't even hear the tones when given examples of 3 Thai words with the same spelling but different tones and hence different meanings. Eventually I got it and do pretty well now.
This seems like an interesting study also. Bilingual skills enhance stroke recovery, study finds: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-3487...
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Being bilingual is just another proxy for a middle class or higher upbringing.
So, in the US studying a second language is necissary for high school graduation.
> Being bilingual is just another proxy for a middle class or higher upbringing.
... or you could be raised by immigrants who continue to speak their mother tongue at home while the children learn English (or whatever else is the primary language) via TV/School/Public. There's nothing higher upbringing about retaining your parents' culture. If anything, it's more associated with lower class families.
... or you could be raised by immigrants who continue to speak their mother tongue at home while the children learn English (or whatever else is the primary language) via TV/School/Public. There's nothing higher upbringing about retaining your parents' culture. If anything, it's more associated with lower class families.
Depends a lot on where you live. Live in a lower class Hispanic neighborhood? Both English and Spanish would be pretty essential.
I believe that's almost completely false.
My wife was raised in a country where one language was spoken in the house, but she was taught at school in a completely different language. Absolutely nothing to do with being middle class or having a higher upbringing. It was mandated by the State that she be taught in one language, but they couldn't force a local population to completely change their mother tongue in the home and in private.
There are many other situations I can imagine, and know of first hand, where people of all socio-economic levels speak more than one language.
The only time I can think bilingualism may be such a proxy is in a largely mono-linguistic culture.
My wife was raised in a country where one language was spoken in the house, but she was taught at school in a completely different language. Absolutely nothing to do with being middle class or having a higher upbringing. It was mandated by the State that she be taught in one language, but they couldn't force a local population to completely change their mother tongue in the home and in private.
There are many other situations I can imagine, and know of first hand, where people of all socio-economic levels speak more than one language.
The only time I can think bilingualism may be such a proxy is in a largely mono-linguistic culture.
How do you figure? In the US, at least, there are lots of poor immigrants and lots of well-off people raised in English-speaking households. The only reason I can think of which would correlate with wealth would be language classes in school, but most bilingual people get it from being raised that way, not learning it later on. And I believe this article is only discussing bilingualism achieved by being raised with multiple languages, not learning them in school.
Good schools push children into actually learning a second language. The poorer schools around here don't offer as much of an emphasis on foreign languages.
I didn't see a reference in the article about acquiring a second language via upbringing and through other means.
I didn't see a reference in the article about acquiring a second language via upbringing and through other means.
How many of those children pushed into learning a second language actually learn it to the point of fluency? In my experience, that number is nearly zero. For every student who attains fluency from school, there are dozens who don't.
I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly how they selected people in the various studies referenced in the article, but the lack of any reference to native versus non-native languages indicates to me that they're looking at people who speak multiple languages natively. Many of the referenced studies are about young children, who simply wouldn't have had time to learn a language to fluency in school.
I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly how they selected people in the various studies referenced in the article, but the lack of any reference to native versus non-native languages indicates to me that they're looking at people who speak multiple languages natively. Many of the referenced studies are about young children, who simply wouldn't have had time to learn a language to fluency in school.
Does anyone ever achieve fluency in school? I seriously doubt it. I studied German for four years in high school, and I am most certainly not fluent. AFAICT, you really have to be immersed in the language for some time to become truly fluent in it. Studying it in a classroom with only one single fluent person (the teacher) to talk to is not going to do it.
Probably not. Well-off people can better afford study-abroad programs and other such things which could potentially take you from a foundation learned in school to fluency, so that would still be a potential link. Still, the number of people who pull that off has to be small compared to those who just grow up in a bilingual (or just non-English-speaking) household.