How Germany Does Prison(themarshallproject.org)
themarshallproject.org
How Germany Does Prison
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/06/16/how-germany-does-prison
4 comments
I think the question to ask people who favor punishment prisons is this: prisoners get out of prison one day. If a prisoner was moving in the house next to yours as your neighbor, would you rather have a prisoner from a prison focused on humane treatment or from a prison focused on punishment?
prisoners get out of prison one day
Unfortunately the people who favour punishment prisons are likely to counter by saying that people should never get out of prison; or, if they do, they should be banned from living next to ''decent'' people (this is the effect of things like offender registry laws).
Unfortunately the people who favour punishment prisons are likely to counter by saying that people should never get out of prison; or, if they do, they should be banned from living next to ''decent'' people (this is the effect of things like offender registry laws).
Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime. If a prisoner gets out of prison they are going to live somewhere, so somebody is going to be their neighbor. Even if they aren't your neighbor they still live in the same city. The only way around that is to make completely segregated cities for ex-prisoners with walls around them, but that's effectively a giant prison with life sentences for everyone.
The most important thing is to engage the rational side of the brain and focus on outcomes instead of the emotional side of the brain and focus on revenge. Recidivism is much lower in humane prisons (something like ~20% vs ~70%).
The most important thing is to engage the rational side of the brain and focus on outcomes instead of the emotional side of the brain and focus on revenge. Recidivism is much lower in humane prisons (something like ~20% vs ~70%).
Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime.
The effect of 3-strikes laws was a life sentence for every third crime, and these have been quite popular. My point is the underlying moral viewpoint of some people that crime is a character trait and not a contingent behaviour: the view that some people are just "bad". Switching this discussion to the rational mode is extremely hard.
The effect of 3-strikes laws was a life sentence for every third crime, and these have been quite popular. My point is the underlying moral viewpoint of some people that crime is a character trait and not a contingent behaviour: the view that some people are just "bad". Switching this discussion to the rational mode is extremely hard.
Usually its actually not about the crime at all- its just a revenge phantasy on somebody, who is percieved to be not "caged" in the working life and society as oneself.
Offenders are just the smallest set of agreeable individuals deserving the punishment for not walking the citizen line.
Offenders are just the smallest set of agreeable individuals deserving the punishment for not walking the citizen line.
I'm one of those "some people" you mentioned. It is indeed about morals. Violence, in my view, is definitely a character trait inextricable from genetic makeup and early upbringing (which sets significant epigenetic markers).
That is exactly why people should be armed. There is no reason for violent criminals to be in prison, they should be dead either from their victim defending themselves, or those around the victim defending the victim. As for non-violent crimes, they shouldn't be in prison, they should be fined or made to work to repay their damages.
This is the rational mode. Your mode, being soft-hearted and wanting to find excuses for violence behavior just so that the criminal can't be blamed, is the emotional mode.
That is exactly why people should be armed. There is no reason for violent criminals to be in prison, they should be dead either from their victim defending themselves, or those around the victim defending the victim. As for non-violent crimes, they shouldn't be in prison, they should be fined or made to work to repay their damages.
This is the rational mode. Your mode, being soft-hearted and wanting to find excuses for violence behavior just so that the criminal can't be blamed, is the emotional mode.
Not sure why you are downvoted and not parent comment; both make the unsubstantiated claim their position is rational and another position is not.
Ah, but that's hardly a claim that needs substantiating. Everybody knows that people can change, adapting to your environment is a basic survival instinct.
Anyone arguing that people don't... can't change obviously has a deeply twisted understanding of humanity.
Anyone arguing that people don't... can't change obviously has a deeply twisted understanding of humanity.
Maybe because it directly contradicts the facts? If people can't change then why is the recidivism rate in humane prisons 20% and in punishment oriented prisons 70%?
A more likely explanation however is that there is another reason why he is downvoted: because he suggests killing all violent offenders.
A more likely explanation however is that there is another reason why he is downvoted: because he suggests killing all violent offenders.
or worse - "I have a firearm for reasons of self-defence"
The people who favor punishment prisons live in communities unaffordable to convicts and have likely never met one or ever expected to meet one.
Citation?
It's called gentrification.
I expected better from someone with the username laotzu.
And gentrification isn't even a proper example for Palindrome Peter. This isn't a matter of yuppies coming into a neighborhood that has a strong community but has been historically poor, aianus is talking about suburbs that have always been middle-to-upper class. Think Santa Monica, Bellevue, and the entire state of Connecticut. :3
And I suspect that Taoists really wouldn't give a fuck about gentrification. "If you realize that all things change, there is nothing you will try to hold on to. If you are not afraid of dying, there is nothing you cannot achieve."
And gentrification isn't even a proper example for Palindrome Peter. This isn't a matter of yuppies coming into a neighborhood that has a strong community but has been historically poor, aianus is talking about suburbs that have always been middle-to-upper class. Think Santa Monica, Bellevue, and the entire state of Connecticut. :3
And I suspect that Taoists really wouldn't give a fuck about gentrification. "If you realize that all things change, there is nothing you will try to hold on to. If you are not afraid of dying, there is nothing you cannot achieve."
Gentrification is the buying and renovating of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by wealthier individuals, which in effect increases property values and displaces low-income families and small businesses
"When rich speculators prosper while farmers lose their land; when government officials spend money on weapons instead of cures; when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible while the poor have nowhere to turn- all this is robbery and chaos. It is not in keeping with the Tao."
"When rich speculators prosper while farmers lose their land; when government officials spend money on weapons instead of cures; when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible while the poor have nowhere to turn- all this is robbery and chaos. It is not in keeping with the Tao."
Spot on question, bravo!
You set it up as "punishment prisons" vs. "humane prisons".
I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals. The imprisonment is the punishment, not the treatment inside the prison.
I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals. The imprisonment is the punishment, not the treatment inside the prison.
I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals.
Huh? People say it all of the time, at least in the U. S. Prison rape is just a given with no visible attempts at fixing it, and $DEITY help the prison official or politician proposing putting in TV, or keeping the prison library updated lest they be labelled as "coddling" prisoners.
Maybe we just have vastly different points of view, but I find your statement to be outlandish enough that I assume that I've misunderstood what you're saying.
Huh? People say it all of the time, at least in the U. S. Prison rape is just a given with no visible attempts at fixing it, and $DEITY help the prison official or politician proposing putting in TV, or keeping the prison library updated lest they be labelled as "coddling" prisoners.
Maybe we just have vastly different points of view, but I find your statement to be outlandish enough that I assume that I've misunderstood what you're saying.
> I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals. The imprisonment is the punishment, not the treatment inside the prison.
I think there are many people who say prisons should be inhumane to punish criminals, it's just that they don't understand what they're advocating is inhumane.
An example is the meme that prisoners aren't being punished enough in their "country club prisons", and they should be denied all "luxuries" (defined as thing like TV sets, education, and other things to pass the time). The people who subscribe to that are advocating for inhumane punishment (sensory/psychological/social deprivation), but often they're reflective and haven't thought though their own ideas to really understand them.
I think there are many people who say prisons should be inhumane to punish criminals, it's just that they don't understand what they're advocating is inhumane.
An example is the meme that prisoners aren't being punished enough in their "country club prisons", and they should be denied all "luxuries" (defined as thing like TV sets, education, and other things to pass the time). The people who subscribe to that are advocating for inhumane punishment (sensory/psychological/social deprivation), but often they're reflective and haven't thought though their own ideas to really understand them.
And yet...Texas made their lesser criminals plant potatoes in the hot Texas sun in the middle of nowhere. Recidivism dropped to almost nothing, for those crimes (petty theft etc).
Cruel? No, some folks line up to do those jobs. If its ok for Joe Shmoe to get paid minimum wage to do it, then its ok for inmates. Just hot and miserable.
Anyway, I'm 'incarcerated' in my cubicle for 8 hours a day. It definitely matters what treatment is inside the prison.
Cruel? No, some folks line up to do those jobs. If its ok for Joe Shmoe to get paid minimum wage to do it, then its ok for inmates. Just hot and miserable.
Anyway, I'm 'incarcerated' in my cubicle for 8 hours a day. It definitely matters what treatment is inside the prison.
> Anyway, I'm 'incarcerated' in my cubicle for 8 hours a day.
Really? You can't go to lunch when you want? Go for a coffee break? Call in sick when you aren't well? Quit that job if you find a better one?
Anybody who lines up for the opportunity to plant potatoes in the hot sun is clearly desperate for work. Desperate people will do lots of things that "normal" people would not.
Really? You can't go to lunch when you want? Go for a coffee break? Call in sick when you aren't well? Quit that job if you find a better one?
Anybody who lines up for the opportunity to plant potatoes in the hot sun is clearly desperate for work. Desperate people will do lots of things that "normal" people would not.
Thats what all the moral high horse talk boils down to- a revenge fantasy against those percived free
Thanks for proving a point i made somewhere up in the thread.
Thanks for proving a point i made somewhere up in the thread.
After reading the article, I'm wondering: so, how Germany does prison?
> Over the next several days, I’ll be keeping a tour diary for The Marshall Project and VICE, watching as they visit a series of facilities in Berlin and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
This is an article about what the article will say once they write it. Premature journalism at its best.
> Over the next several days, I’ll be keeping a tour diary for The Marshall Project and VICE, watching as they visit a series of facilities in Berlin and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
This is an article about what the article will say once they write it. Premature journalism at its best.
On the other hand stating your research method, intentions and any prior expectations before conduction your research is just good science and journalism shouldn't be an excuse to avoid rigor.
>This is an article about what the article will say once they write it. Premature journalism at its best.
Maybe you missed the whole "article series" thing? You can click on the tag to see all of the articles published thus far on this project:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/tag/how-germany-does-pris...
Maybe you missed the whole "article series" thing? You can click on the tag to see all of the articles published thus far on this project:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/tag/how-germany-does-pris...
There are five installments in this Series.
And this: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/09/25/prison-without... seems to be the longer article scheduled for October.
Great! Maybe a mod will change the URL?
Actyally this seems to be a better URL for this: https://www.themarshallproject.org/tag/how-germany-does-pris...
We Germans have our own issues though, it's not perfect. What is the prison system in the US, is the psychiatric system here. Once you get in its wheels, it takes really dedicated lawyers and sometimes even mass-media attention to get out. Just look at Gustl Mollath.
And our "justice" system suffers from massive, massive understaffing, just like the police. It's easy to "cut costs" there for politicians because there is no immediate negative effect, and by the time said effects hit, the politician responsible is not in office any more.
And our "justice" system suffers from massive, massive understaffing, just like the police. It's easy to "cut costs" there for politicians because there is no immediate negative effect, and by the time said effects hit, the politician responsible is not in office any more.
I've never seen more police than in Berlin. In Norway I can go for months without seeing police. In Berlin they were everywhere with guns and body armor. So, yeah, not underfunded at all, as far as I can see.
Berlin is a special case because there are a lot of places that require protection such as government buildings, embassies and synagogues. There is also a protest somewhere in Berlin on almost any given day. On top of that there is the criminal activity, drugs mostly, which means that the police raid places like Görlitzer Park pretty much daily.
In the rest of Germany there are cities you can easily spend months in without encountering a police officer.
In the rest of Germany there are cities you can easily spend months in without encountering a police officer.
Do Police really raid Görlitzer Park? I haven't been in Berlin for long but I was under the impression it was fairly tolerated, and it seems like a bit of a waste of police resources to crack down on (what I understand is) just a bit of weed.
They do, not that it has any noticeable impact.
Weed is definitely widely tolerated. Many people are in favor of legalization not just among those that enjoy weed but also among people working in the justice system that recognize that prohibition isn't working. Legalization would make it easier to deal with addicts, make it easier to prevent children and teenagers getting weed, would make many parks nicer to visit and bring in taxes. I think that it's just a matter of time until public opinion shifts to the point that it will be legalized.
Nevertheless the time isn't there yet, the senator responsible for police is member of the CDU, conservative and in favor of prohibition and unfortunately, while it's mostly weed, it's not just weed and many people aren't too happy about the aggressive sales tactics.
Weed is definitely widely tolerated. Many people are in favor of legalization not just among those that enjoy weed but also among people working in the justice system that recognize that prohibition isn't working. Legalization would make it easier to deal with addicts, make it easier to prevent children and teenagers getting weed, would make many parks nicer to visit and bring in taxes. I think that it's just a matter of time until public opinion shifts to the point that it will be legalized.
Nevertheless the time isn't there yet, the senator responsible for police is member of the CDU, conservative and in favor of prohibition and unfortunately, while it's mostly weed, it's not just weed and many people aren't too happy about the aggressive sales tactics.
Berlin is a special case.
You can stay weeks in cologne without seeing one police woman/man.
Yes, the Mollath case was disgusting.
Politicians meddling with the justice system, because of a (partly misguided) public outrage.
As a result, Mollath got off.
Politicians meddling with the justice system, because of a (partly misguided) public outrage.
As a result, Mollath got off.
As far as I know, there are no truly federal prisons in Germany, so depending on whether you're in Mecklenburg-Pomerania or Bavaria, things might vary quite a bit (although stringent federal laws do apply).
Up until 2006 prisons were completely regulated federally, even though they were run by the states. Since then, the states are in charge of prison laws, though they don't vary much.
Just as an example for one of they "major" differences: Most states still require TVs in common rooms but as many inmates have their own nowadays, some states made them optional. In Hamburg there is never a TV in a common room. Some states may require the inmates to pay for the electricity they use with their own appliances.
Most other differences are also on that level.
Just as an example for one of they "major" differences: Most states still require TVs in common rooms but as many inmates have their own nowadays, some states made them optional. In Hamburg there is never a TV in a common room. Some states may require the inmates to pay for the electricity they use with their own appliances.
Most other differences are also on that level.
- When I was a kid someone "borrowed" a bulldozer and made a huge hole in the wall at a prison. A few guys escaped. But most of the rest didn't. They were having some sort of family day and didn't think it made sense to bolt.
- I was taught how to swim by a convict on release. He had a police officer with him each time, but she kept in the background. He was doing time for a violent offence, but one that reasonably did not pose a danger to the general public.