Ask HN: Are all programming employment contracts this bad?
3 comments
Sadly this is not an uncommon boiler plate piece that is stuck in a lot of contracts. First, depending on your state this may or may not be legal, some states protect work that you do on personal time and equipment. So you may want to research that as regardless of the boiler plate it would be unenforceable (gets more complicated if crossing state lines too). As for the contract, you should think hard about whether or not to sign it if you are wanting to do anything personally. I'll also point out that these aren't really new clauses, I had companies sending me contracts like that 15 years ago, so it isn't really new, just more common now.
Your options are, contact the company and discuss the concern over this clause and either have them strike the entire clause or suggest a modification that states they own anything you do that is directly related to your primary job function with them (and define it in the contract). E.g. If they make toasters and you are writing firmware for their toaster you won't make your own toaster firmware. But that all other inventions, creations, concepts and software you write on personal equipment and personal time is yours exclusively.
If they refuse either of those, then honestly I'd seriously think about saying no thank you the terms just aren't fair and find a new place to work, and I'd be honest with them as to why. Or if you are jammed for cash, work for a few months while you find something else. I am not generally a fan of the second option because it is unfair in some ways to the employer unless you put your all into it to make sure they get some value out of you.
Your options are, contact the company and discuss the concern over this clause and either have them strike the entire clause or suggest a modification that states they own anything you do that is directly related to your primary job function with them (and define it in the contract). E.g. If they make toasters and you are writing firmware for their toaster you won't make your own toaster firmware. But that all other inventions, creations, concepts and software you write on personal equipment and personal time is yours exclusively.
If they refuse either of those, then honestly I'd seriously think about saying no thank you the terms just aren't fair and find a new place to work, and I'd be honest with them as to why. Or if you are jammed for cash, work for a few months while you find something else. I am not generally a fan of the second option because it is unfair in some ways to the employer unless you put your all into it to make sure they get some value out of you.
The key is disclosing all contracts at the time of the offer. Some unscrupulous employers wait until the first day the employee show up for work after they left a previous job.
In these cases unless you have lots of money in the bank, you have little choice but to sign and live under the restriction.
In these cases unless you have lots of money in the bank, you have little choice but to sign and live under the restriction.
Agreed.
Please, employers, disclose all policies and contracts at the time of the offer.
And please, employees, ask about policies and contracts at the time of the offer.
Please, employers, disclose all policies and contracts at the time of the offer.
And please, employees, ask about policies and contracts at the time of the offer.
This is what has happened to me. I start on Monday, and just got this contract yesterday.
If I were you, in the future at least, I would be requiring a potential employer to supply me with the contract before I agreed to give notice at my current position. If you are professional about it they will get it and unless they are dodgy they won't have any issue with it. I have had a couple of freelancers I worked with in the past year actually ask me for the agreement in this way and I totally respect that and have no issues with it.
I've seen it in a lot of places - however, just because they sent you a contract does not mean you have to sign it - you are still in the negotiation period. This means that you can edit the contract as both parties see fit. Your best recourse is to just mention it to them and ask them to amend that portion.
These employers typically treat the contracts as a standard form contract or "Contract of Adhesion" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_form_contract
For most people its usually sign it or don't work for us.
If your skills are really in demand, you might be able to get the terms modified if there are no requirements from investors and banks to have the contract worded in a specific way.
For most people its usually sign it or don't work for us.
If your skills are really in demand, you might be able to get the terms modified if there are no requirements from investors and banks to have the contract worded in a specific way.
I've asked employers to narrow the scope of that terminology in the past. They did so.
It states that all work I create during my employment is deemed to be the company's, even if that work is created on my own time. Is this a standard clause? How can they own something I do in my spare time at home? I feel very uncomfortable about that, and now I'm really nervous as I was suppose to be starting on Monday.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.