'One million babies' created by EU student exchanges(yahoonewsdigest-intl.tumblr.com)
yahoonewsdigest-intl.tumblr.com
'One million babies' created by EU student exchanges
http://yahoonewsdigest-intl.tumblr.com/post/98180077267/one-million-babies-created-by-eu-student-exchanges
8 comments
Indeed. The media report is an odd spin, considering the headline of the EU report is:
"Erasmus Impact Study confirms EU student exchange scheme boosts employability and job mobility"
The part about "1 million babies" is buried several paragraphs in as random statistic, but the author turns the entire story over and runs with that as the lead.
I think the submission should be changed to the EU report, as it's far more informative than the blog re-write, and has less of a smelly spin to it.
"Erasmus Impact Study confirms EU student exchange scheme boosts employability and job mobility"
The part about "1 million babies" is buried several paragraphs in as random statistic, but the author turns the entire story over and runs with that as the lead.
I think the submission should be changed to the EU report, as it's far more informative than the blog re-write, and has less of a smelly spin to it.
On the other hand, without "1M babies" headline this link would be less likely to appear on Hacker News )
Because you expected journalistic integrity from a Tumblr blog title "Yahoo News Digest"?
There's a reason the Erasmus program (through which I've met some really great people) is often known by the students as "Orgasmus".
All things considered, this is one of those positive headlines we so rarely see these days.
All things considered, this is one of those positive headlines we so rarely see these days.
I'm not convinced that trans-national babies are an unmitigated good. Anecdotal evidence among my friends and acquaintances suggests to me that the more cultural differences there are between the parents, the more friction they can potentially generate down the road in a long term relationship.
what is so positive about spawning babies?
Unless they're unwanted and accidental - what isn't positive about spawning babies? Specifically in the context of people leaving their own country to discover other cultures. It shows how easy it is to just be great humans together, without artificial segregation based on country boundaries.
> what isn't positive about spawning babies?
Overpopulation.
Overpopulation.
Europe doesn't have this problem and the program doesn't concern Africa or India where they have this problem.
"Multi-national" babies in Europe where populations are actually declining.
what is so wrong about declining populations? Isn't it a good thing?
That's a bad thing. You will then have a large generation of elderly people who ought to be supported by a much smaller generation of working people. And the economy caves in; old people die of lack of care, everybody loses.
Stable population might be a good thing, but rapid declining is very problematic. And that's where some countries are headed.
Stable population might be a good thing, but rapid declining is very problematic. And that's where some countries are headed.
What is your definition of "rapid decline" ? 1% a year? More?
Europe could trivially make up any population decline by changing immigration policies. Right now, thousands of people are drowning every year trying to cross the Mediterranean. Most laments about European population decline seem to really be concerned about a decline in white Europeans when you get down to it.
Europe could trivially make up any population decline by changing immigration policies. Right now, thousands of people are drowning every year trying to cross the Mediterranean. Most laments about European population decline seem to really be concerned about a decline in white Europeans when you get down to it.
Bringing uneducated and unfit people to society will only make matters worse. It's same as adding workers to late project. You can only assimilate so many people per decade.
And of course I would want Europe to stay Europe, not caliphat. I assume Europeans do too.
And of course I would want Europe to stay Europe, not caliphat. I assume Europeans do too.
So we have to keep spawning babies to take care of old people?
What a bizarre logic.
What a bizarre logic.
"So we have to keep spawning babies"
That's the gist of it.
In other news: we still have to heat our homes, grow our food and build things from stuff we dig out of ground.
That's the gist of it.
In other news: we still have to heat our homes, grow our food and build things from stuff we dig out of ground.
That's how it has been for thousands of years, your children are your retirement fund.
or you know you can save money spent on kids for your actual retirement fund.
If the society in question crumbles, money won't save you and your fund gets bust.
Your only chance would be getting out of country, and this may not be easy in senior age.
Your only chance would be getting out of country, and this may not be easy in senior age.
It's not only about the money. It's about the fact that your money will not buy you much if there are too few people around of working age to keep society functioning
And here we are on Hacker News, the site run by Y-Combinator, not having a clue how to solve the problem of "not enough manual labour to maintain civilisation's infrastructure".
It's like nobody ever watched Wall-E.
It's like nobody ever watched Wall-E.
As a matter of fact, we don't. I've yet to see a working post-employment society; and the society we have today is unable to function when unemployed to employed are five to one.
Your nurse will have to pay like 90% tax, but this way you can never afford to hire her in the first place. The whole thing breaks down. Our economy taxes individual profits, because corporations evade taxes; but then if nobody has to work, we can't have revenue from taxes and can't pay anyone anything.
Your nurse will have to pay like 90% tax, but this way you can never afford to hire her in the first place. The whole thing breaks down. Our economy taxes individual profits, because corporations evade taxes; but then if nobody has to work, we can't have revenue from taxes and can't pay anyone anything.
Our system changes to adapt. We'll see what adjustments the post-employment age pushed us to adopt. I think it'll have to be something palatable to the hard-working older folks (who vote and can't stomach socialism)
Welcome to the Matrix, where you're downvoted for questioning what amounts to emotional enslavement.
It's just a nice headline, being more or less directly responsible for new families is a more pleasant claim than you see in most headlines. It also seems more common that a headline referencing sex does so in a negative sense (Are exchange students bonking when they should be studying?).
There is a deficient of babies in Europe. I still don't get what's the point if the youth employment rate is so abysmal.
If there are a million people where Mother is from country A, and Father from country B, then that person is unlikely to think that everyone from country A is scum (or vice versa), and unlikely to support a war between A and B.
20th century Europe is what happens when people fight among each other. If we can reduce that, we should.
20th century Europe is what happens when people fight among each other. If we can reduce that, we should.
To be fair this didn't help Russia-Ukraine conflict the slightest.
That's a good way to reduce nationalism in Europe (which has sometimes led to wars).
Tell that to the inter-ethnic families in former Yugoslavia (i.e., Croat-Serb, etc.). During the war, they were simply forced to choose sides. Similar examples can easily be found throughout the world.
Maybe there simply weren't enough inter-ethnic families, or not enough of the population were exposed to other cultures?
Yeah lol, everywhere in Europe nationalist parties are on the rise.
What reduces nationalism or racism is people having jobs and enough money to make hands meet so they dont have time to blame the jew,the arab or the negro. Go ask the greeks,italians or the french if Erasmus babies "reduced nationalism".In France a far right party leader has some serious chanced to be elected as president.The far right is growing in Austria,Germany,Sweden,France,Greece,Holland,Uk and many other countries.
What reduces nationalism or racism is people having jobs and enough money to make hands meet so they dont have time to blame the jew,the arab or the negro. Go ask the greeks,italians or the french if Erasmus babies "reduced nationalism".In France a far right party leader has some serious chanced to be elected as president.The far right is growing in Austria,Germany,Sweden,France,Greece,Holland,Uk and many other countries.
I doubt that Europe has much inter-Europe nationalism already. That is, between different nations of Europe.
And I'm not sure this program affects nationalism between locals and immigrants. It may do so, since a lot of university students are immigrants. But on the other hand, it is also true if you study locally.
And I'm not sure this program affects nationalism between locals and immigrants. It may do so, since a lot of university students are immigrants. But on the other hand, it is also true if you study locally.
If you think there's no inter-Europe nationalism I'm not sure where you live. There's a bunch of it. In my environment (German) growing up it was mostly about French, Polish, and a bit about British people. Sure, straight racism mostly happened towards e.g. Turkish immigrants but that's where it stops.
racism toward Turkish is where it starts in Germany (even those 2nd or 3rd generation born in Germany). Where it ends is the institutionalized discriminatory education system [1]. But this mostly gets swiped under the rug as even liberals in Germany have trouble accepting the problems.
1.en: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/st...
1.de: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/gl...
1.en: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/st...
1.de: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/gl...
That pamphlet makes for some scary reading, but is this typical of all of Germany? Perhaps some folks who are living in Germany can comment?
I live in Berlin, Germany's largest city and most liberal(?) city, which is where the PDF is largely focused. The problem is that unlike a media-hyperbolic society such as the US where meme's travel fast, Germany is a bit more civil and people mostly mind their own business. This brings its own benefits and problems. The problem being that most citizens believe the state of discrimination to be what they have seen (as you will notice from many comments of Germans here and other places). When in-fact in a meme based society eventually stories of real discrimination would become more widely understood.
When I talk to people here about the problem of discrimination in the education system few believe it at first. A stalwart all people here hold is that their education system is "great". The stats even for the general population, not accounting for different classes or races, brings that into stark question. Until you relay to them the stories then they start consider it more closely. Then they may start to see that the Gymnasium system meant to promote excellence is actually just a Cast system. Being that promotion to Gymnasium is dependent on a letter from a students teacher. If nothing else tacit discrimination a result of the natural psychology to favor the familiar helps found unfair results.
Prior to the Information Era the Gymnasium / Hauptschule system had a function as professional labor was highly valued. This is no longer the case and not getting into a Gymnasium has stronger psychological effect than it would have before. This system, for this era, is discriminatory at its base.
Consider The Pygmaliom Effect [1] (aka self-fulfilling prophesy) that proves measured aptitude is dependent on confidence and attention within the education system. Here in Germany you have a system that reaffirm the predefined bias against immigrants and you don't give them attention so they don't perform as well.
At least in Berlin, there is evidence that teachers and headmasters of Gymnasiums are just blatantly racist. Consider the arguments some made against Affirmative Action for Gymnasium enrollment in 2011 [2]:
I feel most Europeans want to protect their idea that whatever problems they hear about in the US, that they don't have anything similar. It's convenient and comfortable but absolutely blind.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2....
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28Germany%29
When I talk to people here about the problem of discrimination in the education system few believe it at first. A stalwart all people here hold is that their education system is "great". The stats even for the general population, not accounting for different classes or races, brings that into stark question. Until you relay to them the stories then they start consider it more closely. Then they may start to see that the Gymnasium system meant to promote excellence is actually just a Cast system. Being that promotion to Gymnasium is dependent on a letter from a students teacher. If nothing else tacit discrimination a result of the natural psychology to favor the familiar helps found unfair results.
Prior to the Information Era the Gymnasium / Hauptschule system had a function as professional labor was highly valued. This is no longer the case and not getting into a Gymnasium has stronger psychological effect than it would have before. This system, for this era, is discriminatory at its base.
Consider The Pygmaliom Effect [1] (aka self-fulfilling prophesy) that proves measured aptitude is dependent on confidence and attention within the education system. Here in Germany you have a system that reaffirm the predefined bias against immigrants and you don't give them attention so they don't perform as well.
At least in Berlin, there is evidence that teachers and headmasters of Gymnasiums are just blatantly racist. Consider the arguments some made against Affirmative Action for Gymnasium enrollment in 2011 [2]:
Headmasters have objected, saying this type of policy would be
"a disservice" to poor children, that they would not be able
to keep up academically. The headmasters have also expressed
concerns that children of working-class families would not
feel welcome at gymnasien. Wolfgang Harnischfeger, headmaster
of a well-known Berlin gymnasium, has stated:
It can be noticed in children as young as kindergarten
students, that children take after their parents. They
emulate their language, their way of dressing, their way
of spending their free time. Kids from Neukölln [a poor
neighbourhood] would not feel good about themselves if they
had to attend a type of school that mainly serves students
from social classes different from their own. They will
not be able to integrate. Every field day, every school
party will show that".
I feel most Europeans want to protect their idea that whatever problems they hear about in the US, that they don't have anything similar. It's convenient and comfortable but absolutely blind.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2....
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28Germany%29
Haha really? Culture in Europe revolves a lot around nationalism. Especially the culture that spreads through jokes. Although this is mostly geared through neighbouring countries - everyone's got a couple of spicy jokes about their neighbours to the South or East (or both). The further South/East a nation, the worse they supposedly are.
But for a more serious example: Just ask any European how they feel about gypsies.
But for a more serious example: Just ask any European how they feel about gypsies.
Gypsies being the only really outlying data point suggest they are for a big part responsible for their sad image.
If europeans were intolerant to other european nations, perhaps they'd despise many of them equally and not just one.
You can use Jews as a counterexample, but I hold my point for consideration.
If europeans were intolerant to other european nations, perhaps they'd despise many of them equally and not just one.
You can use Jews as a counterexample, but I hold my point for consideration.
The main difference between racism against gypsies and antisemitism is, that most antisemitic people are to afraid to stand to their prejudice because the public climate is against them whereas racism against gypsies is completely socially accepted in big parts of Europe, especially in the east and south.
But around a quarter of the population beliefs in anti-semitic stereotypes if asked directly, according to studies in Austria and it's much, much worse in Hungary or Greece for example.
And Gypsies can't be "responsible for their sad image" as a whole because nobody is responsible for their ethnicity. Responsibility for prejudice lies at the racists who can't see people as individuals. One aspect might be that Gypsies in general aren't very visible in large parts of Europe except in stories about criminals.
And Gypsies can't be "responsible for their sad image" as a whole because nobody is responsible for their ethnicity. Responsibility for prejudice lies at the racists who can't see people as individuals. One aspect might be that Gypsies in general aren't very visible in large parts of Europe except in stories about criminals.
To add to this point, the phrase "Don't be such a jew"[1] is widely accepted as a thing to say in large parts of Europe. It's probably got a lot to do with the fact that there simply aren't (m)any jews in large parts of Eastern and Germanic Europe. First time I interacted with somebody who identifies as jewish was when I came to the US.
This makes it easier for long-standing stereotypes to stay put because nobody is there to challenge them or give you a different experience than what is passed down through oral tradition.
[1] it roughly means something along the lines of "Don't be so calculative with money, be more generous, don't count pennies"
This makes it easier for long-standing stereotypes to stay put because nobody is there to challenge them or give you a different experience than what is passed down through oral tradition.
[1] it roughly means something along the lines of "Don't be so calculative with money, be more generous, don't count pennies"
"nobody is responsible for their ethnicity"
But you might be responsible for not setting yourself apart from poisonous culture prevalent within your ethnicity.
I know a few people of Gypsy descent, they're assimilated perfectly well into the society we're in (for multiple generations I should add). It is sad when they're confronted with stereotypes about culture they are not defined by, but the only constructive solution to this is changes to said poisonous culture. Do this and prejudice goes away fast.
I know a few people of Gypsy descent, they're assimilated perfectly well into the society we're in (for multiple generations I should add). It is sad when they're confronted with stereotypes about culture they are not defined by, but the only constructive solution to this is changes to said poisonous culture. Do this and prejudice goes away fast.
It's also interested to look at the history of the Holocaust and the Nazis. They gassed the Roma/Gypises as well as the Jews.
> "If europeans were intolerant to other european nations, perhaps they'd despise many of them equally and not just one."
Nope. Racism is not exactly the same as "hating all other countries/races/ethnicies equally". Even the Nazis* treated different countries differently (treating the jews worse, eastern europeans / slavs very bad, and western europeans bad etc.)
* I think it's OK to discuss the Nazis when talking about the history of inter-european nationalism and wars, goodwins law be damned.
Nope. Racism is not exactly the same as "hating all other countries/races/ethnicies equally". Even the Nazis* treated different countries differently (treating the jews worse, eastern europeans / slavs very bad, and western europeans bad etc.)
* I think it's OK to discuss the Nazis when talking about the history of inter-european nationalism and wars, goodwins law be damned.
"Black people being the only really outlying data point suggest they are for a big part responsible for their sad image."
See, it works for the US as well. ;)
See, it works for the US as well. ;)
You must not live in the EU. Nationalism is alive and growing in EU countries, and it's not just aimed at non-EU nationals.
intra european nationalism is alive and kicking. Just ask Germans what they think of "lazy" spanish, "corrupt" italians etc.. but it is moving in a better direction - also thanks to programs like the Erasmus exchange.
Is there a difference between nationalism and the fact that Italy does in fact has almost twice as high of a corruption index as Germany or that Spain has half the GDP?
Comparing the GDPs of two countries and assuming the difference must be due to laziness is almost the epitome of prejudice.
the difference is knowing a statistic and generalizing it to each and every citizen of a country. Especially the "lazy" part - that has even been proven to be completely untrue if you look at hours worked etc.
Europe doesn't have much inter-Europe nationalism at the moment and Erasmus (Orgasmus btw holds some truth in it..) has a lot to do with it.
By mixing students from different countries we all realize that there is nothing to separate among people of different nationalities, we all breathe and think and act similarly.
And this has tremendously helped Europe to get past its horrible past where almost each country was fighting against each other in 2 world wars etc into a future where no German will think of a French or British as enemy. But rather as just a guy/gal who happened to grow up in a different part of Europe.
And this has tremendously helped Europe to get past its horrible past where almost each country was fighting against each other in 2 world wars etc into a future where no German will think of a French or British as enemy. But rather as just a guy/gal who happened to grow up in a different part of Europe.
We have had multiple wars with nationalism as a major factor in Europe over the last couple of decades. It's just that the most serious stuff have been happening "far" away from Western Europe.
There were a lot of wars in the name of freedom, religion, human nature etc., you might want to throw away those too while you're at it, in fact, let's just exterminate humanity, cause all wars were caused by humans.
History has also shown us that, even if you have people with the same beliefs, skin color, nationality... etc. they will still find a way to wage war with each other.
History has also shown us that, even if you have people with the same beliefs, skin color, nationality... etc. they will still find a way to wage war with each other.
You seem to be implying that there's a constant level of violence that people commit, and eliminating one outlet for it will simply cause the violence to spill over into others.
But that's simply not true. The USA, for instance, hasn't had significant levels of collective domestic violence since the ethnic cleansings of the 19th century. Western Europe hasn't either since WW2. Compare that to, say, a similar geographic area of similar size in Africa, and it's a world of difference.
Good institutions, civil society, and well-developed property rights reduce violence to a negligible level.
But that's simply not true. The USA, for instance, hasn't had significant levels of collective domestic violence since the ethnic cleansings of the 19th century. Western Europe hasn't either since WW2. Compare that to, say, a similar geographic area of similar size in Africa, and it's a world of difference.
Good institutions, civil society, and well-developed property rights reduce violence to a negligible level.
What I was implying is that just because there were wars waged in the name of nationalism, does not mean that getting rid of it would solve anything, there is no proof for that. I might wage a war against your country in the name of nationality or whatnot, but what I really want is your lands, I'm just making the nationality part up, so that my campaign doesn't look bad.
Also if you get rid of everything that people waged wars for, not much would be left. People waged wars for freedom, you want to get rid of that?
You might also say that beliefs are the problem, let's just get rid of those, however without believes I would probably find it acceptable to just go and attack your people for your lands and riches.
As you can see there is more to it, and we are just scratching the surface.
Last time I have checked the US, Americans were pretty patriotic, and incidentally fought a war for independence and another one for freedom...
Also if you get rid of everything that people waged wars for, not much would be left. People waged wars for freedom, you want to get rid of that?
You might also say that beliefs are the problem, let's just get rid of those, however without believes I would probably find it acceptable to just go and attack your people for your lands and riches.
As you can see there is more to it, and we are just scratching the surface.
Last time I have checked the US, Americans were pretty patriotic, and incidentally fought a war for independence and another one for freedom...
I don't know whether or not his model is true, but the US hasn't had a period without some kind of military conflict for more than like 20 years.
Before World War I many people believed a major European war was impossible. There had been such a long period of peace, and there were arguments that prosperity and economic inter-dependency discouraged it.
Before World War I many people believed a major European war was impossible. There had been such a long period of peace, and there were arguments that prosperity and economic inter-dependency discouraged it.
showed that 27 percent of people who took part had met
their current life partner during their stay abroad.
Thirty-three percent of Erasmus students hooked up with
people of a different nationality than their own,
nearly three times the rate of students who had not
travelled.
The steam engine also did much to promote distant relationships and increase genetic diversity. You were no longer limited to dating someone from the local town or county -- in a few hours journey you could meet someone far away.
Interesting point about the EU's actual argument - that Erasmus students are more likely to be employed - is that (as I remember from my (entirely chaste) Erasmus summer, there was some competition for the places, and better students (or students who were better at presenting themselves) won.
I predict that it is not Erasmus that creates jobs, but students who win Erasmus places also win jobs that were already there.
I predict that it is not Erasmus that creates jobs, but students who win Erasmus places also win jobs that were already there.
There's a slightly more balanced summary article about this report on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29310930
"Thirty-three percent of Erasmus students hooked up with people of a different nationality than their own, nearly three times the rate of students who had not travelled."
Hooked up is the scientific term now. But in reality it's just human nature to want to couple up, combine that with the romantic notion of being in a different country and you have a fairy tale.
Hooked up is the scientific term now. But in reality it's just human nature to want to couple up, combine that with the romantic notion of being in a different country and you have a fairy tale.
Here's a site with a better summary (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1025_en.htm) where you can download the PDF of the report. The executive summary contains some interesting facts.