Ask HN: Where have all the coders gone?
16 comments
Does anyone have any idea on how "hard" it is to create software? The toll on a person who is "tearing it up", without break, for a year. Oh, and not for their direct benefit?
You are seeking a person in the upper percentile of intelligence, fluent in a specialized skill set and asking them to pull off some solo Death March that should require 5-10 people minimum, and for what, to be the "coder" while the idea man is running around with half-cent business cards with CEO in front of their name.
Assume this person _is_ this smart, maybe even smarter than you, most likely he too has realized its easier to be the idea man than to be the guy who has to do all the work.
Ergo the world is stuffed with idea men and suffers a dearth of doers.
You are seeking a person in the upper percentile of intelligence, fluent in a specialized skill set and asking them to pull off some solo Death March that should require 5-10 people minimum, and for what, to be the "coder" while the idea man is running around with half-cent business cards with CEO in front of their name.
Assume this person _is_ this smart, maybe even smarter than you, most likely he too has realized its easier to be the idea man than to be the guy who has to do all the work.
Ergo the world is stuffed with idea men and suffers a dearth of doers.
I agree with your conclusions but not your reasoning.
It's certainly hard to write software, but I don't agree that writing software is harder than the non-technical work for a start up. Programming is deterministic (for a smart enough person) in that effort goes in and software comes out.
Sales, marketing and PR is highly non-deterministic and getting it right only looks easy in retrospect. Hours and hours of effort goes in, and you might get back magic or horse manure regardless of how good you are - although there are people who have a decent average at obtaining magic.
The reason I agree with you however is that a lot of the 'idea men' pitching programmers are no better at the required non-technical disciplines than a blind man navigating a maze on a moonlit night with a bag over their head after a drinking session.
I suppose the only way you can tell if a prospective partner is good is to sell if they can sell something - and if they can sell you on working with them that test is passed. Self selection in action!
It's certainly hard to write software, but I don't agree that writing software is harder than the non-technical work for a start up. Programming is deterministic (for a smart enough person) in that effort goes in and software comes out.
Sales, marketing and PR is highly non-deterministic and getting it right only looks easy in retrospect. Hours and hours of effort goes in, and you might get back magic or horse manure regardless of how good you are - although there are people who have a decent average at obtaining magic.
The reason I agree with you however is that a lot of the 'idea men' pitching programmers are no better at the required non-technical disciplines than a blind man navigating a maze on a moonlit night with a bag over their head after a drinking session.
I suppose the only way you can tell if a prospective partner is good is to sell if they can sell something - and if they can sell you on working with them that test is passed. Self selection in action!
Investors can be worse. Take the average public shareholder, they do nothing except hold the equity that was once created a long time ago. It's all about the money. "He who has the gold makes the rules." It shouldn't be like that, but that's way it can pan out.
I think you should post a job offer. Nice sentiments are appreciated, of course, but people actually might want to know about you first and what you want done. Otherwise your post has plenty of warm feelings and zero information, as it is.
I hate this "rockstar coder" thing. Whenever I see a job offer where they're looking for a "rockstar coder" I'm automatically repulsed, I always think the company is run by 2x year old fanboys who believe everything they read.
Who describes themselves as a "rockstar coder"? If you're young and realistic about it, you can't have enough experience to tell. Most good experienced programmers I know are modest people and would never describe themselves as "rockstars" and would never apply to such an offer.
This seems to be a way to get "arrogant coders" to apply...
Who describes themselves as a "rockstar coder"? If you're young and realistic about it, you can't have enough experience to tell. Most good experienced programmers I know are modest people and would never describe themselves as "rockstars" and would never apply to such an offer.
This seems to be a way to get "arrogant coders" to apply...
If you're looking to hire a good programmer, think of what good means to you and what specific skills your project needs and write them down. Writing "rockstar programmer wanted" is a hint that you can't even do that (instead you're pushing hype-speak), which sets off alarm bells. Also, at the end of the offer you can write something like: if this sounds interesting to you but you don't exactly fit the bill, you can still apply, but also attach an explanation why you're interested and why we should be interested in you.
I've always been confused by the "rockstar" thing as well. I know what they're trying to say, but it seems like a strange metaphor. Rock stars are quintessentially style over substance. Sure many of them are competent musicians, some are even very good, but that's pretty incidental to their rockstardom. A rock stars main job is to look the part and sell the brand while others do the heavy lifting. That seems almost the opposite of what you'd want in a programmer. What you really want isn't the rockstar, but the virtuoso guitarist who is always kept slightly in the background but is the main reason why the rockstar sounds so good.
Hmm, "just starting out," "loves tearing it up," and "results oriented." So you want someone young that you can work to death and not pay very much? What exactly are you offering that would make such a person want to work for you? Whatever Seth Godin is telling you, we developers are people that are motivated by more than developing code for free so that business people can get rich. Maybe you can't find these great developers because they don't think you offer them anything that they couldn't get from every other nontechnical person that just wants to exploit them. I don't see one thing in your post that suggests that you do.
I don't know about other programmers but I got out of the game. I still program for myself but I got sick of people asking me for miracles. I was to make them happen but it drained me every time and was consuming my life. The other programmers had a more balanced view (corporate programmers) and didn't think about programming outside of office hours but I couldn't do that. I tried working for a couple of startups but they all failed so I decided to change industries. Programing is essentially problem solving and problem solving can be used almost anywhere. I still program on my own projects but not during work hours and to be honest it feels great.
"but I got out of the game."
So what do you do these days, if it is ok to ask?
So what do you do these days, if it is ok to ask?
To clarify, they are not seriously suggesting that there are less programmers at this moment than previously, and they are not eliciting stories of why some programmers have left.
The question in the title was a setup for asking for applications to an undefined job. Add "likes nebulous offers" to the list of qualifications.
The question in the title was a setup for asking for applications to an undefined job. Add "likes nebulous offers" to the list of qualifications.
So what are you doing now?
I also got tired of all this corporate bullshit and decided to go to school again...
I also got tired of all this corporate bullshit and decided to go to school again...
Aah, the elusive rockstar coder.
I would suggest you rewording when looking for a coder as in your case: explain briefly what is expected of them, what they would be doing, the technologies/languages in use. If those are too specific or have not decided yet, then you're looking for a technical co-founder instead of a coder.
I would suggest you rewording when looking for a coder as in your case: explain briefly what is expected of them, what they would be doing, the technologies/languages in use. If those are too specific or have not decided yet, then you're looking for a technical co-founder instead of a coder.
We're hiding from you! Check behind the couch
There are loads. They want lots of money, no management bullshit, and respect - otherwise they'll just go do their own thing.
"I'm looking for a rockstar coder who can solve all of my problems, do all the graphics design and layout, magically take my half-cooked idea work in a perfectly scalable and performant way in multiple natural languages in only 80 hours per week for 10 weeks. And will be thrilled with the 25$ an hour I'm willing to pay him/her".
I grow weary of the above conversation (note it's not really ever much of a conversation. I mostly just listen, nod, and then tell I was joking when I said I was a programmer).
I grow weary of the above conversation (note it's not really ever much of a conversation. I mostly just listen, nod, and then tell I was joking when I said I was a programmer).
All the good ones are probably working on their own ideas.
Or full time for someone else - only a small number of the professional programmers I know do 'out of hours' coding for fun or profit. The ones that do tend to be restricted to a fairly narrow age range and are working on their own things or with a well-trusted friend.
Despite the fact that I am running my own business I frequently get asked to work on <an idea that is sometimes good but usually not interesting to me> by <a person I have met once with no idea of how hard their concept actually is to implement> who seem to be under the impression that because I can code I'd be happy with a 5% equity stake and will jump right on it.
I take it as a compliment that they think highly of my abilities and try to be helpful by trying to point them at people who are looking for work, suggesting some ways they can make their pitch more credible (for example, committing to the prospective programmer how many hours they will put into PR and sales work), and resetting their expectations up to about 50% of equity.
Right now the tables are turned on me as I would love a good PR and sales person to work with (not business admin - I'm good at that). But I need someone who can fund themselves for 12 months and so that puts me firmly on the wrong end of the supply/demand equation for once. The experience has given me a lot more empathy with the B school grads out there looking for coders.
Despite the fact that I am running my own business I frequently get asked to work on <an idea that is sometimes good but usually not interesting to me> by <a person I have met once with no idea of how hard their concept actually is to implement> who seem to be under the impression that because I can code I'd be happy with a 5% equity stake and will jump right on it.
I take it as a compliment that they think highly of my abilities and try to be helpful by trying to point them at people who are looking for work, suggesting some ways they can make their pitch more credible (for example, committing to the prospective programmer how many hours they will put into PR and sales work), and resetting their expectations up to about 50% of equity.
Right now the tables are turned on me as I would love a good PR and sales person to work with (not business admin - I'm good at that). But I need someone who can fund themselves for 12 months and so that puts me firmly on the wrong end of the supply/demand equation for once. The experience has given me a lot more empathy with the B school grads out there looking for coders.
developers looking for non-technical partners - now that area would be in demand. The power shifts to the developer, but that would be a good thing for the project. A site for this would be great - developers would never have to take a project again that they don't like again (well that's a goal). One of the logistics involved is geographical dispersion of founders: is that acceptable, and how can it be overcome?
Its like how everyone has an idea for an AWESOME computer game, if only they could find (coder|artist|...)
That is actually a special case: There aren't a lot of people who are both artists and coders, so there would nearly always be someone who would be looking for the other part.
And no, I don't have an idea for an awesome game. But that is because I am working on one, so I will properly be inspired by next summer. Oh well.
And no, I don't have an idea for an awesome game. But that is because I am working on one, so I will properly be inspired by next summer. Oh well.
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Ok. So you are a real coder looking for a real coder.
1 : Take no care to the resumes. Do not let anyone filter postulants.
2 : Recieve yourself everyone
3 : You'll know in a matter of minutes if he's a real coder or no. Well, if you're a Real Coder.
=> Anoying but small invest of your time. That pays.
=> Anoying but small invest of your time. That pays.
Wait .... wat?
See, there is a fundamental problem with this. You, as a non coder, will NEVER be able to tell who is and who isn't a "rock star". And odds are, your dream coder will probably not want to work with you. Unless of course you're working on something really cool with a bunch of other really smart coders.
I am sorry to say this.
Coding is no longer treated as adding value to the company.linkedin or meetup.com is a good place to start. Otherwise try a local software house, but they may not help much with requirements or take equity - and you'll pay high prices, but at least you can meet physically and get the ball rolling.
if you're looking for someone who's "starting out" and is "the dream coder" at the same time, you're most likely looking in the wrong places indeed...
Long time passing.
Girls picked them every one.
The basic problem, as you have found, is that the greatest programmers aren't looking for a job, not even now during a recession, and certainly not with you.
Standard advice involve networking, showing up at user groups, trade conferences, et cetera.
These can take a long time to work however, so in your case I would take a look at how to make your company more interesting for the type of people you want to attract.
Try to look at your company as and outsider might do:
1)What would a great programmer love about the work? Because , as you might as well face now, you are not going to get anybody really good really excited about the prospect of maintaining an in house Java ERP system. You would have a good chance to get one to work on a new system build in Clojure though.
2)How are your managers going to treat people? The old fashioned manager based on the military/factory hierarchy or the new get out of the way so the people can do awesome work while I watch their back politically?
3)This is something you might not have thought about, but do you really need this type of person? They are way better technically, but Joe the coder is going to be way easier to satisfy, employ, manage, keep around and replace. You don't need the rangers to take Berlin, you need a lot of expendable barely literate soldiers.
Anyway this is just a few things you might want to think about.
You know what I mean - results oriented, and gives a personal touch to every line. Especially someone who's starting out and really loves tearing it up. Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong places?
If you think you know someone like this, would you ask them to drop the rest of us non coders a line.
As for me, an email to [email protected] will work just fine.