Whatever Happened to MSX Computers?(dvorak.org)
dvorak.org
Whatever Happened to MSX Computers?
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/whatever-happened-to-msx-computers/
20 comments
This isn't a boring story!
I wish there was a site where this kind of information could be collected. Personal history of computing is important and a lot of it is being lost.
I wish there was a site where this kind of information could be collected. Personal history of computing is important and a lot of it is being lost.
Actually, old-computers.com lets people post personal stories about the machines they have in their museum.
example: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=90
I wish it was used more/better known though.
example: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=90
I wish it was used more/better known though.
There is one for Apple.
http://www.folklore.org/index.py
http://www.folklore.org/index.py
Apple 1 and Apple ][ history
http://apple2history.org/history/ah01/
How did he make the wrapper functions persist between sessions?
Some LOGOs allow you to save and load a default workspace, complete with words you have taught LOGO. Google has failed me with MSX Logo however.
They were saved to disk. I'm not sure if he overwrote the disk logo came on, or we used a different disk. It was 25 years ago :)
Windows Phone is the new MSX!
MSX came along in the UK when the home computing market was well established. We all knew 'network effects' even of we did not know the phrase, hence, if you were in the Sinclair ecosystem and only owned a ZX81 you wanted either a ZX Spectrum (48K) so you could play the same games as your friends or a BBC Micro like what the school had. Similarly, if you owned a Commodore Vic20 then a Commodore 64 was the way to go. Beyond these few brands there were plenty of Ataris (400/800), Ti/994a's, Dragon 32's and so on, none of which had 'network effects'.
The UK home computing market morphed into Amigas, Acorn Risc machines, Ataris and the Amstrad versions of the Sinclair machines, at which time Microsoft were still trying to foist a tarted up version of MSX onto the marketplace, but nobody was buying even if the MSX machines were very nice. They just never managed the 'network effects' that the popular machines had.
History is rhyming with itself as far as Microsoft is concerned, their Windows Phone is entering a crowded marketplace that is settled. People with old Android phones go for new Android phones, people with old Apple phones go for new Apple phones. It is that simple. Regardless of the benefits of Windows Phone it just does not matter. They can tart it up all they like but nobody cares.
MSX came along in the UK when the home computing market was well established. We all knew 'network effects' even of we did not know the phrase, hence, if you were in the Sinclair ecosystem and only owned a ZX81 you wanted either a ZX Spectrum (48K) so you could play the same games as your friends or a BBC Micro like what the school had. Similarly, if you owned a Commodore Vic20 then a Commodore 64 was the way to go. Beyond these few brands there were plenty of Ataris (400/800), Ti/994a's, Dragon 32's and so on, none of which had 'network effects'.
The UK home computing market morphed into Amigas, Acorn Risc machines, Ataris and the Amstrad versions of the Sinclair machines, at which time Microsoft were still trying to foist a tarted up version of MSX onto the marketplace, but nobody was buying even if the MSX machines were very nice. They just never managed the 'network effects' that the popular machines had.
History is rhyming with itself as far as Microsoft is concerned, their Windows Phone is entering a crowded marketplace that is settled. People with old Android phones go for new Android phones, people with old Apple phones go for new Apple phones. It is that simple. Regardless of the benefits of Windows Phone it just does not matter. They can tart it up all they like but nobody cares.
Fun fact, the Sega SG-1000 (precursor to the Sega Master System which is almost the same hardware), Colecovision and the original MSX are almost the same hardware. So close that porting software between the systems (so long as it fits in RAM) is pretty trivial.
In some markets, porting games provided much of the libraries. It's interesting that so many NES games, a different architecture all together, started on the MSX.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365887
In some markets, porting games provided much of the libraries. It's interesting that so many NES games, a different architecture all together, started on the MSX.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365887
Only slightly related, but the Nintendo AVS (unreleased) has a design similar to many MSX models http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071214134519/nintendo/e...
Was MSX really a failure, or just a failure outside of Japan? I was under the impression that MSX was the 8-bit micro in 80s Japan. I don't know too much about it's history, but given that so many important game series got their start on MSX (including Metal Gear and Bomberman), it doesn't seem right to call it a failure. It sounds like when people say the PC-Engine/TurboGrafx-16 was a failure because it bombed in America, when it was more popular than the Genesis/Megadrive in Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX#Franchises_established_on_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX#Franchises_established_on_...
Dvorak has lots of little factual errors in the article. I posted it hoping for a good discussion.
It was a pretty big success in Japan indeed and did respectable numbers in other world markets outside of the U.S. (and was eventually released in the U.S. but was DOA).
There's a few interesting variants of the hardware too, like dedicated MIDI composers, and a version that let's you do video compositing (display MSX graphics over top of video using a dedicated "transparent" color) like an early video toaster.
There's still a surprisingly active scene for it (unlike the Amstrad or Atari 8-bit machines). Nowhere near the C64, ZX, or Apple II levels.
I think one of the problems was that the architecture was dated when it started, and relied on an architecture that wasn't going to go anywhere (Z80). So building a cheap 8-bit machine at the beginning wasn't hard. And in the later years building the most powerful 8-bit machines imaginable became easy as well. But the move to bigger bit architectures was very hard. The Turbo-R spec tried, but the market had already moved on.
In Japan, other PC standards caught on and lasted longer. The NEC PC-88 line for example, was a business oriented 8-bit computer that was Z80 also. But when the market clearly needed a 16-bit upgrade, they simply moved to the 8086 line. Which as you can guess gave them a core architecture that lasted well into the 80386 days...but was not entirely IBM PC compatible.
Other Japanese PC standards like the Sharp X1 were also Z80 based. But when they jumped to 16-bit they went with the Motorola 68k architecture and produced the X68000 which also got it up through the 32-bit 68030 days. Despite being fantastic hardware (much more capable than the comparable Amiga), Sharp never released the line outside of Japan.
Well after the IBM PC standard had won the battle for PCs (with Apple hanging on), Japan still tried to produce non-PC compatible systems. Fujitsu's FM Towns is the most well known. Basically a 32-bit super desktop PC built around the 80386SX (and went up to the Pentium line) with lots of custom, Amiga like, hardware to support an a CD-ROM drive as standard. It had great graphics and audio capability for the time. The system was designed to boot to live software from CDs, so users wouldn't have to muck around in DOS or Windows to launch software. It worked great, but the fact of the matter is that most of the software on the FM Towns are just ports of PC software with small upgrades in graphics or sound. You could also boot direct to "Towns OS" in 1989 2 years before anything else could boot to an OS from an optical disk. There was a brief play to try to "consolize" the FM Towns and a variant called the "FM Towns Marty" was released which was the first 32-bit console ever released.
If you ever get a chance the FM Towns ports of LucasArts games are generally superior to the PC releases and ScummVM supports them.
It was a pretty big success in Japan indeed and did respectable numbers in other world markets outside of the U.S. (and was eventually released in the U.S. but was DOA).
There's a few interesting variants of the hardware too, like dedicated MIDI composers, and a version that let's you do video compositing (display MSX graphics over top of video using a dedicated "transparent" color) like an early video toaster.
There's still a surprisingly active scene for it (unlike the Amstrad or Atari 8-bit machines). Nowhere near the C64, ZX, or Apple II levels.
I think one of the problems was that the architecture was dated when it started, and relied on an architecture that wasn't going to go anywhere (Z80). So building a cheap 8-bit machine at the beginning wasn't hard. And in the later years building the most powerful 8-bit machines imaginable became easy as well. But the move to bigger bit architectures was very hard. The Turbo-R spec tried, but the market had already moved on.
In Japan, other PC standards caught on and lasted longer. The NEC PC-88 line for example, was a business oriented 8-bit computer that was Z80 also. But when the market clearly needed a 16-bit upgrade, they simply moved to the 8086 line. Which as you can guess gave them a core architecture that lasted well into the 80386 days...but was not entirely IBM PC compatible.
Other Japanese PC standards like the Sharp X1 were also Z80 based. But when they jumped to 16-bit they went with the Motorola 68k architecture and produced the X68000 which also got it up through the 32-bit 68030 days. Despite being fantastic hardware (much more capable than the comparable Amiga), Sharp never released the line outside of Japan.
Well after the IBM PC standard had won the battle for PCs (with Apple hanging on), Japan still tried to produce non-PC compatible systems. Fujitsu's FM Towns is the most well known. Basically a 32-bit super desktop PC built around the 80386SX (and went up to the Pentium line) with lots of custom, Amiga like, hardware to support an a CD-ROM drive as standard. It had great graphics and audio capability for the time. The system was designed to boot to live software from CDs, so users wouldn't have to muck around in DOS or Windows to launch software. It worked great, but the fact of the matter is that most of the software on the FM Towns are just ports of PC software with small upgrades in graphics or sound. You could also boot direct to "Towns OS" in 1989 2 years before anything else could boot to an OS from an optical disk. There was a brief play to try to "consolize" the FM Towns and a variant called the "FM Towns Marty" was released which was the first 32-bit console ever released.
If you ever get a chance the FM Towns ports of LucasArts games are generally superior to the PC releases and ScummVM supports them.
Guess I'll join in. My first computer was also an MSX. They were very popular in the Arab World because of an Arabic branded version made by (for?) a company called Sakhr. It played all the MSX games and that's what mattered. I'm pretty sure there's still a Metal Gear cartridge in my parents house somewhere.
I wonder what Sakhr is up to now, if they're still around...
I wonder what Sakhr is up to now, if they're still around...
A whole lot of Arabic Language technologies; machine translation, OCR and a bunch of government-scale contracts. http://www.sakhr.com/index.php/en/
Being from Kuwait, Sakhr was the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of the post.
Being from Kuwait, Sakhr was the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of the post.
Oh the MSX was great, for an 8-bit computer.
And yes, there were drives for it, but maybe if they "didn't bundle" that was the issue
The MSX II was an 8 bit computer though, only the "Turbo" was 16-bit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX2#MSX2 (The 2+ added even more capabilities, and more important, most of them were accessible from Basic)
And it could do a lot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=busiDuS94qY
And yes, there were drives for it, but maybe if they "didn't bundle" that was the issue
The MSX II was an 8 bit computer though, only the "Turbo" was 16-bit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX2#MSX2 (The 2+ added even more capabilities, and more important, most of them were accessible from Basic)
And it could do a lot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=busiDuS94qY
The msx is pretty insane for creating music even today. This album was created using a Sharp x68000 http://cheapbeatsmusic.bandcamp.com/album/new-power
The article doesn't mention that MSX computers had little to differentiate themselves from each other. Er, so a Panasonic MSX was very similar to a Sony MSX. This is great if you like standards but makes it hard to chose one machine over another. I beleive some people were paralysed by that choice and took a different computer instead. Also, individual makers within MSX had profits diluted by all the other MSX builders.
That was the whole idea. Microsoft would license BASIC and MSX-DOS for whatever they felt like while computer makers, unable to differentiate on features, would compete on price alone and grow the market for Microsoft.
I'm quite surprised clever execs bought that...
Also, the fact MSX was obsolete when compared to similarly priced Commodore and Atari machines of the time didn't really help. Also, MSX2 and 2+ were still 8-bit designs, Trbu-R being the first and only major overhaul, far too late to really matter.
I'm quite surprised clever execs bought that...
Also, the fact MSX was obsolete when compared to similarly priced Commodore and Atari machines of the time didn't really help. Also, MSX2 and 2+ were still 8-bit designs, Trbu-R being the first and only major overhaul, far too late to really matter.
But why wouldn't the clever execs buy it? They are consumer electronics companies. The TVs they manufactured followed standards (PAL/NTSC), their videocassetes were all VHS... why should it be different for home computers?
tv/vcr/radios/etc are all for content consumption - it's generally a read-only experience. "computers" have a (imo) somewhat "hard to define" level of interactivity that wasn't taken in to account. For execs that hadn't worked with personal computers before, this would be an unknown.
Hindsight is always 20/20. If I were a Panasonic/Sony executive in the 80's seeing the success of Atari with no means to compete, and had some company showing up with a standard that would allow me to just do my core business (manufacture at scale), of course I would get into it.
The only problem is that the MSX standard failed to gain adoption, not with the strategy itself. If you think about it, it is no different than what Google did with Samsung/LG/HTC/any other mobile manufacturer. And these executives are not seen as stupid for adopting Android and growing the market for Google, are they?
The only problem is that the MSX standard failed to gain adoption, not with the strategy itself. If you think about it, it is no different than what Google did with Samsung/LG/HTC/any other mobile manufacturer. And these executives are not seen as stupid for adopting Android and growing the market for Google, are they?
I think because of the 70s/80s, you now have at least one generation of execs that at least have a more basic understanding of tech, and I suspect Samsung/LG/etc have a better idea of what they're getting in to.
Additionally, these players got in early enough in to a market (smartphones) which wasn't already saturated with competing standards. Indeed, many of these players were already in the phone market, and this was a more natural evolution for them. Contrast this with the MSX trying to get in to the market with Commodore, Atari, Apple, IBM, Acorn, Sinclair and others all vying for the same (albeit growing) pool of dollars. At that point it's about as 'me too' a play as you can execute.
Of course hindsight is 20/20, but even in 1985 I could somewhat explain why computers were different than VCRs - I'd spend every waking hour working with my ZX81 then later my C128. We used a VCR a few hours a week to watch a movie - passively. Fundamentally different use cases and interaction modes.
Additionally, these players got in early enough in to a market (smartphones) which wasn't already saturated with competing standards. Indeed, many of these players were already in the phone market, and this was a more natural evolution for them. Contrast this with the MSX trying to get in to the market with Commodore, Atari, Apple, IBM, Acorn, Sinclair and others all vying for the same (albeit growing) pool of dollars. At that point it's about as 'me too' a play as you can execute.
Of course hindsight is 20/20, but even in 1985 I could somewhat explain why computers were different than VCRs - I'd spend every waking hour working with my ZX81 then later my C128. We used a VCR a few hours a week to watch a movie - passively. Fundamentally different use cases and interaction modes.
I think we are using different points of reference here. if you take the iPhone as the ground zero of smartphones, then Android was still new. But I'm looking at the Palm OS/Windows CE/Blackberry/Symbian days. This makes the parallel between MSX/Android and Panasonic/HTC even more clear.
And to go back to the point: OP implied that it was a stupid strategy of the manufacturers to embrace some standard. I see no fault at the strategy. It didn't pan out, that's all.
And to go back to the point: OP implied that it was a stupid strategy of the manufacturers to embrace some standard. I see no fault at the strategy. It didn't pan out, that's all.
They were quite popular in Belgium as well. I got a Philips VG8020 in '87 at age 12, a bit after my uncle got one cheap as a Philips employee. I remember spending almost every evening at his place before my parents got me my own :)
I had a Commodore 64, but my best friend (we were 10 yo) got an MSX. I still remember how he repeated the sales pitch that "it was far superior to the Commodore 64". It's the first time I remember questioning a computer salesman pitch. But it was just the start of a long career helping friends to defuse all their bullshit.
Heh, I was so proud of my Amiga which was the best thing here in europe at the time, I had a buddy over who's parents were from Japan and tried to impress him with the quality of the graphics and sound, he was like 'yeah it's ok but my machine is much better'.
I remember scoffing at his statement saying something like 'dude, only the arcades are better than this', he then invited me to his place where he had a Sharp X68000, I remember being totally stunned.
This was a home computer with arcade perfect ports, he showed me ghouls'n ghosts, gradius, space harrier, r-type, they looked (and to my ears sounded) exactly like their arcade counterparts, it was apparently never sold outside of Japan.
I remember scoffing at his statement saying something like 'dude, only the arcades are better than this', he then invited me to his place where he had a Sharp X68000, I remember being totally stunned.
This was a home computer with arcade perfect ports, he showed me ghouls'n ghosts, gradius, space harrier, r-type, they looked (and to my ears sounded) exactly like their arcade counterparts, it was apparently never sold outside of Japan.
The case design is timeless http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/307077SHAx68000XVI1D.jpg
It's probably one of the most beautiful computers ever made IMHO. Also the perfectly square screen with square pixels, incredible sound hardware. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLJhPvI-H9A
It's kind of like the Lamborghini Countach of the computer world. Iconic and timeless.
It's kind of like the Lamborghini Countach of the computer world. Iconic and timeless.
Somehow the x68000 gave genes to wii and ps4
Not only were they arcade perfect ports, many arcade games coming from Japan used the Sharp as a dev environment...so they pretty much were the arcade games.
Ah, I didn't know this, makes sense though as they were 'perfect' (as far as my memory goes).
Typically the arcade to Amiga conversions were ranging from so-so to downright awful (with some notable exceptions like Pang which as I recall was very faithful), so I was amazed at seeing him loading up these arcade perfect versions on his X68000.
Typically the arcade to Amiga conversions were ranging from so-so to downright awful (with some notable exceptions like Pang which as I recall was very faithful), so I was amazed at seeing him loading up these arcade perfect versions on his X68000.
Silkworm on the Amiga was slightly better than the arcade, IMHO.
Ok, but that was much later! :)
Ah yes, my response was more in the context of me having the same inaccurate sales pitch as that of your friend, but I realize that my 'best thing at the time' came out wrong as I was referring to the time at which I was proud of my Amiga :)
Oh ok I see now :)
BTW I've been an Amiga enthusiast almost to the very end...
BTW I've been an Amiga enthusiast almost to the very end...
Both my secondary and high schools had labs filled with MSX keyboards, B/W TVs and tape recorders.
My intro to programming came from Joe Pritchard books "MSX Exposed" and "Machine Language for MSX"... and I still have notebooks full of hand written programs... and a fully functional DAEWO MSX keyboard in the closet.
Happy poking!
Happy poking!
My school had MSX comps too, the Yamaha MSX (probably ones mentioned in the article that were sold to Soviet Union). A lot of experiments with low-level programming were done on them. Most docs were not available then (it was time before the Internet :) so it was a lot of piecing together random info and lots of trial and error. Also, it had a bunch of very addictive games (ah, King's Valley)...
I was never any good, but what about nemesis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_2_(1987_video_game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_2_(1987_video_game)
The MSX scene is alive and kicking. Compared to the C64, there isn't that much of a demoscene presence, but a lot of original games and tools are released every year.
I have a soft spot for these scenes that cater only to its insiders. Outside reactions and impressions are secondary.
I have a soft spot for these scenes that cater only to its insiders. Outside reactions and impressions are secondary.
This appears to be the center of the MSX scene http://www.msx.org/
But I'd add there's also a /r/msx on reddit that has a little life amazingly enough.
But I'd add there's also a /r/msx on reddit that has a little life amazingly enough.
If you can get your hands on an emulator, you owe it to yourself to try "The Castle" and "Castle Excellent", two of the best puzzle games ever created.
But do play them on an MSX; the NES version is nowhere near as good.
But do play them on an MSX; the NES version is nowhere near as good.
I was born in USSR and my first computer in 1985 was YAMAHA MSX II with external floppy drive and great color monitor. I still own a class of MSX II KYBT: teacher's computer with two floppy drives and color monitor plus eight students' computers daisy-chained to each other via RS-232 network. Everything is still in pretty much decent condition and can't resist to play Knightsmare or nostalgically run Turbo Pascal. :)
My very first programming experience was on an MSX. At least in my small circle, MSX (and the MSX-2) were at least as popular as Spectrum or the Commodore 64 in Europe. In the 90s (not sure what the current status is) the retro scene interest for MSX computers was quite active as well.
Me too. We had a MSX II (with tape drive, Floppy disk, green monitor etc.) I suppose it was the mid/late 80s, I was just a kid and I was using it to play games, use some programs (and MSX-DOS) and also do some experiments with MSX BASIC.
I remember it as a nice machine, and I was sad that it was not as popular as Commodore 64
I remember reading about MSX in Creative Computing magazine, there's also 4 pages devoted to it in the book Digital Retro.
In addition to the reasons listed here I'd say that what killed MSX is what killed everything else back then, the rise of the PC compatibles. In the early 80's there were "personal computers" based on 8-bit processors that were for the home hobbyist, and the IBM PC-type computers that were so expensive that they were mainly owned by businesses. Basically everyone wanted the PC compatibles to run all the available software, so when prices came down no one wanted the 8-bit Z80 and 6502 machines anymore.
In addition to the reasons listed here I'd say that what killed MSX is what killed everything else back then, the rise of the PC compatibles. In the early 80's there were "personal computers" based on 8-bit processors that were for the home hobbyist, and the IBM PC-type computers that were so expensive that they were mainly owned by businesses. Basically everyone wanted the PC compatibles to run all the available software, so when prices came down no one wanted the 8-bit Z80 and 6502 machines anymore.
Too bad 3DO (or was it 3D0) didn't learn from this mistake ten years later.
In my opinion the 3DO was a great idea, but the execution was poor. Valve are attempting something very similar with the Steam Machines, perhaps this is the time it'll succeed (Oculus Rift being a 'killer app' of sorts).
Interesting that both the 3DO and Atari Lynx were designed by ex Amiga engineers.
Interesting that both the 3DO and Atari Lynx were designed by ex Amiga engineers.
Atari ST introduced in 1984 while Commodore released the C128? Er... No?
I remember having one of these. But I had completely forgotten about it until I read the article. Logo, wow.
I grew up on the MSX. My dad bought two of them in around 1985 or so. At school we were taught Logo on BBC Micros, but we didnt have a BBC micro at home, so my dad sourced MSX Logo [1].
Unfortunately, it was localized in dutch, so instead of the "forward" command, there was the "vooruit" command. So to make it the same as we learned in school, my dad made a set of English functions which wrapped all the Dutch functions. He is an economist/diplomat, not a programmer, and it was quite a few years until I realized what he had done and how impressive that was.
[1] http://www.generation-msx.nl/software/philips/msx-logo/relea...