Sleep 'boosts brain cell numbers'(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
Sleep 'boosts brain cell numbers'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23932577
10 comments
Good article. I hope some of these 'brogrammers' read it and realize that programming 20 hours a day is not only shortening your lifespan. It is, literally, making you more stupid.
I wonder if anyone has ever done a statistical analysis of a large project to see when changes that generated bugs were actually performed. I've long suspected that when you see particularly silly bugs committed by people who really do know better there is usually some explanation that can often be that they are tired/stressed/distracted.
[NB I know myself that I can do particularly silly things when tired so I will sometimes let myself spend a long time investigating a problem but I won't fix it until the next day.]
[NB I know myself that I can do particularly silly things when tired so I will sometimes let myself spend a long time investigating a problem but I won't fix it until the next day.]
I've had projects where we had to send people home because they became a such a noticeable burden.
Personally I wanted to force people out of the office much earlier on one of them because pretty much nothing got done when people were staying late, but it left everyone more tired in the morning, but the CEO was of the "more hours == more work done" mentality and wouldn't listen.
Personally I wanted to force people out of the office much earlier on one of them because pretty much nothing got done when people were staying late, but it left everyone more tired in the morning, but the CEO was of the "more hours == more work done" mentality and wouldn't listen.
Replying to let hnbanned (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319611) know he's been hellbanned again for no reason. Here's his comment:
http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40...
The studies showed that there's a short term gain followed by a fall in productivity.
http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40...
The studies showed that there's a short term gain followed by a fall in productivity.
This is interesting actually. I remember a time I stayed up all night trying to get a script for a game working (hobby project). I was hacking away all night until early morning and I just couldn't fix the issues. After a good sleep, I'd fixed the issue and got it working as it should within an hour. The lesson for me was that I shouldn't put my health on the line for these types of things; it doesn't help in actually making progress and it could set my performance back weeks.
Another big lesson, which is more general and took a few more mistakes, was the value of stepping away from a problem after intense conscious focus on it. This may or may not mean sleep on it but just means taking your mind off it and let the back of your head tick away on it. I think this might actually be the source of "eureka" moments too, which means flashes of ingenuity are not exactly what they seem!
Another big lesson, which is more general and took a few more mistakes, was the value of stepping away from a problem after intense conscious focus on it. This may or may not mean sleep on it but just means taking your mind off it and let the back of your head tick away on it. I think this might actually be the source of "eureka" moments too, which means flashes of ingenuity are not exactly what they seem!
I find a brisk walk, jog or bike ride in the middle of the day consistently boosts my productivity.
[deleted]
That's what Red Bull is for, brah.
/s
/s
Unless, of course, you're doing polyphasic sleep, in which case eh, maybe?
Every post I've seen about polyphasic sleep shows that it is not sustainable.
I've read multiple accounts of people who have done it for several months[1][2][3][4]. I have seen only one account of someone quitting after the initial adaptation for any reason other than convenience.
I have also read some accounts[5] of people who quit polyphasic, but go back to it in various forms when they have time constraints (and apparently adapting back is not very difficult once you've done it once; my guess is that the ability to nap efficiently is not lost, and is the main stumbling block to getting started).
So if by "not sustainable", you mean "very hard to fit into a monophasic sleeping world", then yes, that's true. If you mean "after a week or two, you'll feel exhausted", then yes, that's also true. It takes longer than that to adapt.
If you mean "it's not enough sleep even after you adapt", then where are the posts you're talking about?
[1] http://ohgodthechicken.com/sleep-discipline-experiment/
[2] http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/polyphasic-sleep-on...
[3] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1095
[4] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1060
[5] http://www.xeeban.com/xeeban/archives/000003.html
I have also read some accounts[5] of people who quit polyphasic, but go back to it in various forms when they have time constraints (and apparently adapting back is not very difficult once you've done it once; my guess is that the ability to nap efficiently is not lost, and is the main stumbling block to getting started).
So if by "not sustainable", you mean "very hard to fit into a monophasic sleeping world", then yes, that's true. If you mean "after a week or two, you'll feel exhausted", then yes, that's also true. It takes longer than that to adapt.
If you mean "it's not enough sleep even after you adapt", then where are the posts you're talking about?
[1] http://ohgodthechicken.com/sleep-discipline-experiment/
[2] http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/polyphasic-sleep-on...
[3] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1095
[4] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1060
[5] http://www.xeeban.com/xeeban/archives/000003.html
>>I've read multiple accounts of people who have done it for several months[1][2][3][4].
Your "citations" are impressive, but at the end of the day they are just anecdotal evidence.
We also have many accounts of people who claim homeopathy works. Should we believe them?
Your "citations" are impressive, but at the end of the day they are just anecdotal evidence.
We also have many accounts of people who claim homeopathy works. Should we believe them?
Please don't be a sarcastic asshole. pstuart [Edit: not you] said you saw "posts" that showed it was unsustainable, and provided no citations at all. The fact is that there currently isn't a body of peer reviewed evidence to look at about the long term sustainability of polyphasic sleep.
But it doesn't take much evidence to refute an absolute claim like "polyphasic sleep is unsustainable". If someone is sleeping for 2 hours per night for a five months and says they feel energetic, that's damned compelling. That isn't "It really seemed to cure my headache!" It's "I am still functioning normally after 20 weeks with only 2 hours of sleep per night."
You also can't reasonably compare the priors of homeopathy and polyphasic sleep. If homeopathy worked, we'd have to toss out just about all of the theory behind physics and medicine and start over from scratch. Polyphasic sleep doesn't contradict current scientific knowledge.
But it doesn't take much evidence to refute an absolute claim like "polyphasic sleep is unsustainable". If someone is sleeping for 2 hours per night for a five months and says they feel energetic, that's damned compelling. That isn't "It really seemed to cure my headache!" It's "I am still functioning normally after 20 weeks with only 2 hours of sleep per night."
You also can't reasonably compare the priors of homeopathy and polyphasic sleep. If homeopathy worked, we'd have to toss out just about all of the theory behind physics and medicine and start over from scratch. Polyphasic sleep doesn't contradict current scientific knowledge.
>>Please don't be a sarcastic asshole. You said you saw "posts" that showed it was unsustainable, and provided no citations at all.
You are terribly and hopelessly confused, dude. I didn't say anything of that nature.
You are terribly and hopelessly confused, dude. I didn't say anything of that nature.
No, just stlightly. I confused you for the original person I was replying to. I edited my comment to acknowledge the mistake.
I'm also not sure if the "sarcastic asshole" comment is called for. Not only is the stuff I said not sarcastic, insults of that nature are also clearly against the rules.
I am sorry that I came across as insulting. I interpreted your putting "citations" between quotation marks and then calling them impressive as sarcasm. I'm not sure how else to interpret it, but I will accept at face value your assurance that it was not intended that way.
I did not intend my statement as calling you an asshole. Rather, I perceived your comment as assholish. I assume that you are not an asshole, so I was requesting that you not act like one.
I did not intend my statement as calling you an asshole. Rather, I perceived your comment as assholish. I assume that you are not an asshole, so I was requesting that you not act like one.
A handful of anecdotes does not make your case. Polyphasic sleep with very little overall sleep (eg six short naps a day) is not sustainable. Our bodies require more sleep to function at peak performance.
I tried out polyphasic sleep in 2006. I spent a lot of time before, during, and after reading all the research I could find. I found no research on long term polyphasic sleep (short naps). There is some short term research that shows it can work as a temporary solution when regular sleep is not possible (eg solo sailing competitions). Everything I've read from sleep researchers has said that they think it's completely unsustainable because you're constantly in sleep debt and you're probably negating sleep mechanisms they're not aware of yet (such as the original article here).
My personal anecdote agrees with the researchers. I was able to do it but I always felt about 80-90% normal, like I was functioning at a lower level. I felt cold all the time, possibly due to incorrect hormone levels from lack of sleep (pure speculation).
Eventually the sleep debt caught up to me. I started sleeping through my alarm. 25 minutes of sleep would turn into 2 hours. At least once I turned off an alarm on the other side of the room and went back to bed with no memory of doing it.
I recommend trying it if you can fit it in your schedule. It was a very interesting experience and taught me a lot about sleep. You need to dedicate at least a month, a week or two isn't enough to "adjust" (which never truly happens).
I tried out polyphasic sleep in 2006. I spent a lot of time before, during, and after reading all the research I could find. I found no research on long term polyphasic sleep (short naps). There is some short term research that shows it can work as a temporary solution when regular sleep is not possible (eg solo sailing competitions). Everything I've read from sleep researchers has said that they think it's completely unsustainable because you're constantly in sleep debt and you're probably negating sleep mechanisms they're not aware of yet (such as the original article here).
My personal anecdote agrees with the researchers. I was able to do it but I always felt about 80-90% normal, like I was functioning at a lower level. I felt cold all the time, possibly due to incorrect hormone levels from lack of sleep (pure speculation).
Eventually the sleep debt caught up to me. I started sleeping through my alarm. 25 minutes of sleep would turn into 2 hours. At least once I turned off an alarm on the other side of the room and went back to bed with no memory of doing it.
I recommend trying it if you can fit it in your schedule. It was a very interesting experience and taught me a lot about sleep. You need to dedicate at least a month, a week or two isn't enough to "adjust" (which never truly happens).
It's not just a handful of anecdotes though. I gave a handful of anecdotes that I was able to round up in about 5 minutes of searching. I don't think that the opinion of researchers, uninformed by hard data, and your single anecdote is enough to counter that.
> I found no research on long term polyphasic sleep (short naps)
That is correct. The research doesn't exist. That's why I said "eh, maybe" in my original comment. Whether or not polyphasic truly can work in the long term for most people is not a settled question. It is completely possible that the anecdotes of people who are successful in the long term simply have an unusual genetic predisposition to needing less sleep. There is a plausible rationale for a selection bias on multiple levels to explain the anecdotes; people who need less sleep may be more interested in sleep hacking, and they would be far more likely to make it past the initial adaptation period.
It's also far more likely that polyphasic sleep schedules that include at least one period of "core sleep" are sustainable (e.g. Everyman) than nap-only schedules. And at the extreme end you have biphasic sleep, which gives 6-7 hours and actually has some historical evidence to back it up.
Of course, biphasic won't get you a 20 hour workday. Everyman can, if all you do is sleep and work. That's going to be unhealthy for other reasons, but whether or not it's unhealthy because of sleep deprivation is an open question.
> I found no research on long term polyphasic sleep (short naps)
That is correct. The research doesn't exist. That's why I said "eh, maybe" in my original comment. Whether or not polyphasic truly can work in the long term for most people is not a settled question. It is completely possible that the anecdotes of people who are successful in the long term simply have an unusual genetic predisposition to needing less sleep. There is a plausible rationale for a selection bias on multiple levels to explain the anecdotes; people who need less sleep may be more interested in sleep hacking, and they would be far more likely to make it past the initial adaptation period.
It's also far more likely that polyphasic sleep schedules that include at least one period of "core sleep" are sustainable (e.g. Everyman) than nap-only schedules. And at the extreme end you have biphasic sleep, which gives 6-7 hours and actually has some historical evidence to back it up.
Of course, biphasic won't get you a 20 hour workday. Everyman can, if all you do is sleep and work. That's going to be unhealthy for other reasons, but whether or not it's unhealthy because of sleep deprivation is an open question.
I think everyone owes it to themselves to set aside a few weeks in which they go to sleep early enough that they wake up naturally every day. The feeling is amazing and it does wonders for your productivity.
It is so good for productivity that I've completely stopped using "staying up late" as a method to get things done. If I have a lot of work to do that's a good sign to get to bed early and start in the morning when I'm fresh.
Problems that I spend hours on the night before seem to solve themselves magically in minutes. After a while I got the hint: Just go to bed and sleep. You save time and feel better.
Problems that I spend hours on the night before seem to solve themselves magically in minutes. After a while I got the hint: Just go to bed and sleep. You save time and feel better.
This is an important finding, not because it confirms something that seems obvious for many people (ie. prolonged sleep deprivation = worse performance), but because it can help change the dominant management style in companies. Overworking is a very old problem, but hopefully similar findings will boost the strength of counter arguments.
Although I agree management styles should change based on studies like this, I'm not optimistic they will (at least not very quickly). Evidence against the efficacy of long work weeks has been around for quite a while[0], but that doesn't seem to stop most managers from expecting employees to work more hours.
0: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_...
0: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_...
I learned early in life that it's better to work intensely and rest a lot than do more work of a lower quality. If you are sleep deprived you might miss insights and opportunities. Time is the most valuable resource in the universe: by staying awake longer you are not gaining time but shortening your available time pool in the long run.
My cats should have brains the size of large melons.
So will it ever be possible to artificially produce these cells that go on to make myelin and reduce or eliminate the need for sleep?
Maybe, but I doubt that will be sufficient. Evolution being the opportunistic bastard that it is, it seems likely that lots of little processes have hitched a ride on sleep. There may not be any single factor to take care of which eliminates the need for sleep entirely.
Why tricking the nature is so often the first reaction of people around here?
Sleep helps replinsh brain cells - let's make a pill that does just that so we don't need to sleep as much! Vegitables are good for you - let's have a pill that has all their nutrients so we don't need to eat them! Exercise betters the mood - let's isolate those chemicals so we don't need to exercise! Being barefoot is good for you - let's all buy "barefoot shoes"!
I really don't get it. Why are people so averse to natural ways and ofetn simple moderation. I did not grow up in North America, so maybe it's just a cultural difference.
Sleep helps replinsh brain cells - let's make a pill that does just that so we don't need to sleep as much! Vegitables are good for you - let's have a pill that has all their nutrients so we don't need to eat them! Exercise betters the mood - let's isolate those chemicals so we don't need to exercise! Being barefoot is good for you - let's all buy "barefoot shoes"!
I really don't get it. Why are people so averse to natural ways and ofetn simple moderation. I did not grow up in North America, so maybe it's just a cultural difference.
I sure hope so. That's the key tech needed to treat multiple sclerosis, and I have several friends who are sufferers.
I doubt it would be sufficient in itself to reduce sleep needs, however. Our bodies are practically speaking modal organisms, and there's a lot we only do when sleeping.
I doubt it would be sufficient in itself to reduce sleep needs, however. Our bodies are practically speaking modal organisms, and there's a lot we only do when sleeping.
I have little time. I sometimes overwork one hour or more and I also have a long commute (between 1.30h - 2h).
I sleep at least between four and five hours (except weekends). I work full-time and I'm studying a degree. If I don't do this, I don't have time for everything (see work, study, hobby projects). But it is true that I still feel so unproductive, I can't focus, or it takes me a while and I'm easily distracted, it takes me a long time to think of the correct way to structure a pattern or algorithm... I tried to sleep more, but I always end up feeling overwhelmed by all the tasks.
Unless you are quite unusual, 4-5 hours sleep per day/night is low enough to be bad for your long term health.
see http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/white-papers/how-much... for details.
see http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/white-papers/how-much... for details.
Is it possible for you to fit short naps (~20 minutes) into your schedule? Supposedly, if you practice napping regularly without letting yourself go over time, you will eventually get to the point that you can fall asleep quickly and immediately begin REM sleep.
Assuming that polyphasic sleep schedules are at least as effective as monophasic sleep, one such nap should be worth about an 1h20m of normal sleep. If you can fit even one in, and stick to taking it every day, it could be hugely beneficial. If you can manage to slip three of them in, you might be able to totally counteract the effects of your situation (although people seem to have trouble adopting polyphasic schedules that are designed to fit their schedule, rather than their circadian rhythm).
Assuming that polyphasic sleep schedules are at least as effective as monophasic sleep, one such nap should be worth about an 1h20m of normal sleep. If you can fit even one in, and stick to taking it every day, it could be hugely beneficial. If you can manage to slip three of them in, you might be able to totally counteract the effects of your situation (although people seem to have trouble adopting polyphasic schedules that are designed to fit their schedule, rather than their circadian rhythm).
if you're feeling overwhelmed (these are your words), why are you doing so much?
seriously. why?
seriously. why?
I challenge you to say this to a poverty-stricken single mother of a mentally-disabled child with no job prospects (due to not having any marketable skills, certifications, or degrees) and a mountain of debt left behind by a dead-beat husband who is incapable of providing child-support due to being an alcoholic bum with no job prospects of his own.
This is what my mother-in-law has to deal with every day.
Sometimes people "[do] so much" because they have no reasonable alternatives. Being overwhelmed is a fact of life for them.
This is what my mother-in-law has to deal with every day.
Sometimes people "[do] so much" because they have no reasonable alternatives. Being overwhelmed is a fact of life for them.
this guy is talking about "hobby projects" and posting on HN.
my response was directed at him, not your hypothetical single mother with a special needs child.
my response was directed at him, not your hypothetical single mother with a special needs child.
> my response was directed at him
OK, point taken and understood. My apologies for taking your comment out-of-context.
> not your hypothetical single mother with a special needs child
It wasn't hypothetical. That's an accurate description of the life my mother-in-law leads.
OK, point taken and understood. My apologies for taking your comment out-of-context.
> not your hypothetical single mother with a special needs child
It wasn't hypothetical. That's an accurate description of the life my mother-in-law leads.
The feeling of going to bed early and waking up with the sunrise is an amazing feeling. To be honest I don't know why we were created with a sleep function, we would get so much done without it. Imagine what mankind would achieve with an extra 12hours!
Not much, since for the most part our ancestors did not have illumination at night
Sleep... what a great idea. Someday. It's on the to-do list.