Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry(prospectmagazine.co.uk)
prospectmagazine.co.uk
Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/economics/64492/the-end-of-money-cashless-society
484 comments
There are two fallacies I frequently feel the need to debunk in this
discussion.
- Cash is anonymous
- Cash is an "old" or "low" technology.
When a serious crime is committed you might be surprised how much the police can do to trace cash. Serial numbers in and out of ATMs and shops are tracked, and frequently your face is captured by cameras in stores, ATMs and vending machines.
Modern cash is high technology. Look at a UK or European note already. Holograms, nano-technology, advanced materials science... It's well past the point of being worth forging, and it is likely that future banknotes will use einks, embedded printable passive electronics to do all of the things people hope or fear of purely digital cash, such as time-out, store variable value, and be more traceable.
The function cash really performs is a resilience buffer for person to person transactions that works independently of electrical power and Internet. Smart people at the top are never going to let that slide, because it would be national security suicide and practically inviting civil unrest.
Cash, in evolving forms is here to stay, but it may not have all the properties we think it has and defend it for.
- Cash is anonymous
- Cash is an "old" or "low" technology.
When a serious crime is committed you might be surprised how much the police can do to trace cash. Serial numbers in and out of ATMs and shops are tracked, and frequently your face is captured by cameras in stores, ATMs and vending machines.
Modern cash is high technology. Look at a UK or European note already. Holograms, nano-technology, advanced materials science... It's well past the point of being worth forging, and it is likely that future banknotes will use einks, embedded printable passive electronics to do all of the things people hope or fear of purely digital cash, such as time-out, store variable value, and be more traceable.
The function cash really performs is a resilience buffer for person to person transactions that works independently of electrical power and Internet. Smart people at the top are never going to let that slide, because it would be national security suicide and practically inviting civil unrest.
Cash, in evolving forms is here to stay, but it may not have all the properties we think it has and defend it for.
> [On] 23rd August 1994, the chaotic music duo and performance artists Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty burned £1m of notes behind a boathouse on the Scottish island of Jura. They are not alone in attempting to reduce money’s power…
They literally increased the purchasing power of each remaining pound by doing so.
They literally increased the purchasing power of each remaining pound by doing so.
The ability to shutdown any persons the government doesn't like using any growing list of $Excuses is worrying.
Currency is a freedom to perform transaction and arguably a given right, it's existed since humans learnt trade.
Cash allows anyone to transact without a prerequisite or control. Two parties. Centralised digital currency will change it.
That worry doesn't even include the privacy concerns and as systems become centralised either through standards or legislation. It will be easy to track someones habits or location globally.
Currency is a freedom to perform transaction and arguably a given right, it's existed since humans learnt trade.
Cash allows anyone to transact without a prerequisite or control. Two parties. Centralised digital currency will change it.
That worry doesn't even include the privacy concerns and as systems become centralised either through standards or legislation. It will be easy to track someones habits or location globally.
The current trend is to move from cash to electronic money controlled by the banks. Previously the money deposited to a bank account was the clients money that the bank just kept. Now it's the banks money that can be frozen by any reason and it's the client's responsibility to prove his innocence.
Next step is a blockchain-based crypto, controlled only by a single structure, such as Fed. Total control directly by the government, no banks involved. Full access to the history of all purchases and means to immediately lock out anyone who does anything "wrong".
Personally I'm going to move out of the country as soon as it forbids the cash transactions, as I don't want my kids to be slaves to the government.
Next step is a blockchain-based crypto, controlled only by a single structure, such as Fed. Total control directly by the government, no banks involved. Full access to the history of all purchases and means to immediately lock out anyone who does anything "wrong".
Personally I'm going to move out of the country as soon as it forbids the cash transactions, as I don't want my kids to be slaves to the government.
The other day, I paid cash at the local Chinese-American place, and the owner said "thank you for using cash, it helps small businesses", which took me by surprise. So I asked how much card processors charge, and she went on a bit of a rant, listing processing fees for everything from regular debit cards* charging 3-4% to rewards credit cards being around 7% to special international or world credit cards charging something like 17%. And most of them have a very narrow window to correct or void the transaction. With such rent-seeking behavior by banks, I very much understand wanting to keep cash around.
* Debit cards charged as debit, by entering a PIN. Some terminals allow you to "bypass PIN" and/or automatically charge debit cards as credit. I don't know, it's shady.
* Debit cards charged as debit, by entering a PIN. Some terminals allow you to "bypass PIN" and/or automatically charge debit cards as credit. I don't know, it's shady.
I think the ongoing banking crisis in Lebanon (similarly in Egypt and maybe elsewhere too) where there are restrictions on people's access to their deposits or making international transactions should be on everyone's mind when talking about eliminating cash.
The downside of going cashless aren't hypothetical or as far-fetched as people think. The whole society can be put on hold overnight. We can see this happening in front of us.
Using whatever payment method for convenience in itself is fine. But, eliminating cash as medium, without providing a better alternative, one that can still work in disasters where power or network is down, is wild.
The downside of going cashless aren't hypothetical or as far-fetched as people think. The whole society can be put on hold overnight. We can see this happening in front of us.
Using whatever payment method for convenience in itself is fine. But, eliminating cash as medium, without providing a better alternative, one that can still work in disasters where power or network is down, is wild.
The issues with physical currency are almost entirely self-inflicted. Governments should retire the smallest denominations and introduce larger coins/bills. In the US, all of the coins are worth so little that the only practical coin is the rare half-dollar. Retire all of those worthless coins, require transactions be rounded to the nearest half-dollar or dollar, and issues with physical currency for the user will go away.
Now of course, the government won’t do this as they want physical currency to be inconvenient so they can track you and deny you access to your own money when they find it convenient. We’re in an era of growing authoritarianism. Hopefully we survive this one.
Now of course, the government won’t do this as they want physical currency to be inconvenient so they can track you and deny you access to your own money when they find it convenient. We’re in an era of growing authoritarianism. Hopefully we survive this one.
I live an hour or so outside of Austin and people still primarily write checks as that's the only acceptable payment method, along with cash.
My new wife said, "Wait, why not just use Stripe? I'll tell them."
I had to explain to her that one does not simply pull forward a society thirty years into the future. There is an incredible amount of cultural inertia to overcome.
So I carry a lot of cash out here.
My new wife said, "Wait, why not just use Stripe? I'll tell them."
I had to explain to her that one does not simply pull forward a society thirty years into the future. There is an incredible amount of cultural inertia to overcome.
So I carry a lot of cash out here.
I Denmark we are removing the 1000kr bill as of May 2025. from then on the highest bill. is 500kr which is roughly equal to 80 usd.
Denmark Is the most cashless society I have yet experiences (and I have been traveling a fair bit).
This comes with pros and cons. and I think the reason why it works is because of an incredibly high social trust.
Denmark Is the most cashless society I have yet experiences (and I have been traveling a fair bit).
This comes with pros and cons. and I think the reason why it works is because of an incredibly high social trust.
I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back.
I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.
I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.
WHAAAAATTTTT!!!!!
“…thousands were queuing in Nairobi to have their eyeballs scanned as part of the “Worldcoin” project, founded by OpenAI chief Sam Altman. In exchange for handing over their biometric data, some 350,000 Kenyans each received 25 free crypto tokens, worth approximately $50. Those tokens were transferred directly via Kenya’s main mobile payments app, M-Pesa.”
Actually that doesn’t sound so forward thinking when you consider that the UN has been doing since 2016:
“In 2016, the UN World Food Programme trialled a system that issued relief payments through the use of biometrics. Refugees were able to buy items from the supermarket using their biometric data as a credential: all they needed to do was scan their iris to pay for an item. The idea was to improve convenience and prevent fraud. Since that trial, the World Food Programme’s Building Blocks initiative has become the world’s largest humanitarian use of blockchain technology.”
“…thousands were queuing in Nairobi to have their eyeballs scanned as part of the “Worldcoin” project, founded by OpenAI chief Sam Altman. In exchange for handing over their biometric data, some 350,000 Kenyans each received 25 free crypto tokens, worth approximately $50. Those tokens were transferred directly via Kenya’s main mobile payments app, M-Pesa.”
Actually that doesn’t sound so forward thinking when you consider that the UN has been doing since 2016:
“In 2016, the UN World Food Programme trialled a system that issued relief payments through the use of biometrics. Refugees were able to buy items from the supermarket using their biometric data as a credential: all they needed to do was scan their iris to pay for an item. The idea was to improve convenience and prevent fraud. Since that trial, the World Food Programme’s Building Blocks initiative has become the world’s largest humanitarian use of blockchain technology.”
Yeah it sucks. I can't quite put my finger on it, but is seems like giving up every transaction to the government and corps. That seems like a terrible terrible thing just for a little bit more convenience. I have some bit of hope though, it seems like Gen Z is seeing that "tech fixes everything" is bullshit and see to be enjoying less materialistic and "gotta get the latest/greatest". Millennials were likewise less materialistic than Gen X. Hopefully people come around to using tech where it makes sense and use it less in those areas that are detrimental to quality of life and where simple solutions work just fine.
Pakistan is still a cash based economy, many outlet either deny card payments or apply a processing fee to encourage cash transactions.
"State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) data indicates that the Cash in Circulation (CinC) has increased to Rs9. 2 trillion ($32 billion) at the end of June 2023, which is equivalent to 30 per cent of the total money supply (M2), or around 11pc of the national GDP." [0]
0: https://www.dawn.com/news/1779399
"State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) data indicates that the Cash in Circulation (CinC) has increased to Rs9. 2 trillion ($32 billion) at the end of June 2023, which is equivalent to 30 per cent of the total money supply (M2), or around 11pc of the national GDP." [0]
0: https://www.dawn.com/news/1779399
I really really really like cashless payments
I really really really dislike that my money can be whisked away at the whim of a cray government or a glitch in the system
I really really really dislike that my money can be whisked away at the whim of a cray government or a glitch in the system
It's technologically feasible to create centralized digital cash that is much more anonymous than physical cash. You can do it by using zero knowledge proofs where you have vouchers & nullifiers. It's virtually the same idea that powers Tornado Cash.
It's tractable but challenging, every single transfer of a digital-cash note would necessitate an entry into a public Merkle-tree. You could mitigate this by introducing a multitude of denominations (a separate Merkle-tree for each one) trading some anonymity-set size for the mitigation. Another possibility is to introduce special cash pools that have expiry dates, incentivise their use with lower transaction costs. The transaction costs would have to also be ZKP vouchers but much more flexibility on those, such as rapid expiry.
If a government was crazy enough to do this, they would give up all control over how the money is spent. The only control they would have is whether or not to shut the whole thing down. Discrimination would not be feasible, reversing transactions impossible. They could still print money of course.
It's tractable but challenging, every single transfer of a digital-cash note would necessitate an entry into a public Merkle-tree. You could mitigate this by introducing a multitude of denominations (a separate Merkle-tree for each one) trading some anonymity-set size for the mitigation. Another possibility is to introduce special cash pools that have expiry dates, incentivise their use with lower transaction costs. The transaction costs would have to also be ZKP vouchers but much more flexibility on those, such as rapid expiry.
If a government was crazy enough to do this, they would give up all control over how the money is spent. The only control they would have is whether or not to shut the whole thing down. Discrimination would not be feasible, reversing transactions impossible. They could still print money of course.
I think what's required is electronic cash, something like a CBDC with an electronically transferable, partially anonymous system that still allows offline payments if case the central computers get knocked out.
GNU Taler satisfies one half of these constraints (cashlikeness + taxability). The Swedish e-krona pilot also has a token based component to allow offline payments.
GNU Taler satisfies one half of these constraints (cashlikeness + taxability). The Swedish e-krona pilot also has a token based component to allow offline payments.
I personally started using digital payments once phone touchpay systems came out previously you had to take out cash or card from your wallet to pay so I would still use cash. But once phone payment became common just tapping your phone to pay had a lot less friction than taking out wallet and paying cash or by card.
Fees on digital payments by merchants should be banned, if we are going into a digital era without cash and an expectation that everyone pays digitaly then they should come along with us and be more accommodating or atleast more realistic if they want our business, even if it is just a small cup of coffee the convenience of tap and scan is far superior to dragging your feet to a machine in the middle of the night looking over your shoulder always expecting the worst.
The new soccer stadium in St. Louis is completely cashless. Upon arrival, you attach a form of payment to a scan of your face, then the system tracks you and your purchases throughout the stadium.
No thanks.
No thanks.
You can use a banknote for an unlimited number of transactions, with no intermediary, and no tax per transaction.
States and banks benefit by printing this tool for you, because in return they control the movement of money when it comes back to them, and its value.
But with digital currency, they've hit the jackpot, realizing that they can have their cake and eat it too: they can control the movement of money, its value and even tax it on a per-transaction basis. And without any advantage other than saving space in your pocket.
States and banks benefit by printing this tool for you, because in return they control the movement of money when it comes back to them, and its value.
But with digital currency, they've hit the jackpot, realizing that they can have their cake and eat it too: they can control the movement of money, its value and even tax it on a per-transaction basis. And without any advantage other than saving space in your pocket.
Crazy idea: instead of fighting the consequences of surveillance society, how about we fight the surveillance ITSELF? Everybody here agrees surveillance is bad, yet I bet right now there a few HN readers working on surveillance tech, and not at least most of us are voters, some even involved a bit deeper in politics. How about we actually do something against that what we know it's wrong?
Not used a coin or paper bill for several years now. It’s now at the point where I don’t know what the most common bills and coins look like since they were changed a few years back and I have never owned most of them.
I should keep cash as a backup just like I keep some canned food, but I wonder how society would work in that scenario when many stores don’t have cash registers, many bank offices don’t allow cash deposits and so on. The US would be far more resilient in that situation.
I should keep cash as a backup just like I keep some canned food, but I wonder how society would work in that scenario when many stores don’t have cash registers, many bank offices don’t allow cash deposits and so on. The US would be far more resilient in that situation.
I was in a large supermarket (Tesco) today where they were experiencing "technical difficulties". A repeated announcement over the tannoy stated they could not accept contact-less payments, not by card, not by phone.
They were still accepting cash and physical card insertion (Chip & PIN, or Chip & Signature).
Despite that lots of people were getting flustered at the checkouts (manned and self service) when they were unable to pay. Always carry some cash!
They were still accepting cash and physical card insertion (Chip & PIN, or Chip & Signature).
Despite that lots of people were getting flustered at the checkouts (manned and self service) when they were unable to pay. Always carry some cash!
My bank freezed my access to my debit card and online bank recently, without a reason. They just sent me a message that I should visit the branch in person. Not going to happen. Fortunately I could open a new bank account online and had some spare cash too.
For the first time I realized that I'm a slave to my bank. They can just freeze my money just like that.
In a fully cashless system you'd be a complete slave to the system.
For the first time I realized that I'm a slave to my bank. They can just freeze my money just like that.
In a fully cashless system you'd be a complete slave to the system.
A few months ago, Australia’s second biggest ISP died for a few hours. Retailers tied to their network were unable to process non-cash transactions.
I don't see why I should give a corporation information about all my payments. I already carry a phone with me, that's enough to spy on where I am, they don't need to know what I do or who I do it with. Privacy is a right, not a privilege, I don't see why I should just throw it away for a little convenience.
Does anyone check their credit card bills or bank statements to be sure that all of the charges are valid and for the correct amount? It seems like if you use electronic payment for everything there would be a lot of items to verify. Or do you just assume there's never any errors?
Regarding Mr Corbyn's strawberries, if he takes them (or eats them, spoils them etc), is he not then in debt with Aldi? In which case his cash serves as payment of his debt?
I guess you'd be in hot water for the prior act of stealing though
I guess you'd be in hot water for the prior act of stealing though
I've been reading this for going on 30 years and I still have some in my wallet which is accepted everywhere. Seems to me this is just a recurring trope trotted out for want of an article topic.
I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper.
You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the business, the consumer ultimately pays for it in higher prices. Heck, people pay transaction fees on payments they make the to government because the government won’t take cash.
Do we really need to make not paying invisible fees in everything illegal? Seems crazy.