Codename: Obtvse(natewienert.com)
natewienert.com
Codename: Obtvse
http://natewienert.com/codename-obtvse
355 comments
Those who are talking about this as if the design and concept are just being stolen are acting, well, obtuse.
Wienert is not trying to pass this off as his own work. He's not selling it.
It's a few things, all at once: first, and foremost, it's a parody, skewering the absurd arrogance of the original presentation; it's a generic drug, making something which sure seems to be exclusive for bad reasons and making it accesible; and it's a good example of someone taking matters into their own hands.
Wienert was told something wasn't available to him because he's not witty enough, so he went and built it for himself. To compare this to someone stealing someone's intellectual property malevolently for personal gain is missing the point.
Wienert is not trying to pass this off as his own work. He's not selling it.
It's a few things, all at once: first, and foremost, it's a parody, skewering the absurd arrogance of the original presentation; it's a generic drug, making something which sure seems to be exclusive for bad reasons and making it accesible; and it's a good example of someone taking matters into their own hands.
Wienert was told something wasn't available to him because he's not witty enough, so he went and built it for himself. To compare this to someone stealing someone's intellectual property malevolently for personal gain is missing the point.
Is it just me or is it really silly to fight over who really owns the UI of a rails app that can be made in a few hours.
In my opinion the layout of a blogging website falls more in the realm of fashion than intellectual property.
Some real intellectual property here is Rails itself which thankfully is open.
In my opinion the layout of a blogging website falls more in the realm of fashion than intellectual property.
Some real intellectual property here is Rails itself which thankfully is open.
Dustin Curtis didn't create a blogging platform, he created another PR and traffic grab. Which is great for his career and visibility.
But come on, the only way this could get any more farcical is if Dustin revealed that he orchestrated this whole thing and is in fact both parties.
If I were Dustin, I'd be ecstatic that I'd almost permanently glued to the front page of HN. Any publicity is good publicity.
But come on, the only way this could get any more farcical is if Dustin revealed that he orchestrated this whole thing and is in fact both parties.
If I were Dustin, I'd be ecstatic that I'd almost permanently glued to the front page of HN. Any publicity is good publicity.
Sorry if I missed it, but it looks like the real victim of plagiarism would be: http://drawar.com/
Honestly, nothing about the design or user experience of Svbtle was unique. There have to be more examples, at least by coincidence, of other designs that show prior use of similar typography and layout.
So really, this whole debate of originality seems moot.
Honestly, nothing about the design or user experience of Svbtle was unique. There have to be more examples, at least by coincidence, of other designs that show prior use of similar typography and layout.
So really, this whole debate of originality seems moot.
If anyone is looking for "prior art" for Obtvse or Svbtle should look at Pivotal Tracker. Pivotal implements multiple columns of one line ideas, in Pivotal's case they are features or bugs instead of blog posts.
I wouldn't worry about it too much were I Dustin. He'll keep continually improving Svbtle from his design insights, whereas Obtvse likely will stagnate. And if it doesn't, the contributors would all be programmers, given it's hosted on github. Chances are, they won't use it often, and they won't have the design intuitions that come with design experience and use.
Take it as a form of flattery and just move on. I have faith in his design chops.
Take it as a form of flattery and just move on. I have faith in his design chops.
My Dad always said the best place to open a new suit store is right next door to the oldest, most established suit store in town.
Anyone thinks to create a WordPress Theme out of this design? That would be huge.
I felt the exact same feelings as the writer when I was reading about it's growing interest.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742647
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3737549
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731095
This was until I saw Dustin say he was going to open the platform up to the public. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596
But congrats on going to all that effort to copy one of the most minimalistic blog designs ever. Maybe Dustin should have made it more obvious what his intentions were on the homepage.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742647
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3737549
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731095
This was until I saw Dustin say he was going to open the platform up to the public. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596
But congrats on going to all that effort to copy one of the most minimalistic blog designs ever. Maybe Dustin should have made it more obvious what his intentions were on the homepage.
I posted this in the other thread, but I feel it's worth repeating:
I'm sorry, but isn't this just a reversion to late 90's style frame design? It seems all you've done is build it in the latest trendy standards and add a few little CSS tricks.
Minimalist design is supposed to be about presenting the content first and foremost. But the content is overshadowed by your frame. Your name and flashy CSS tricks are the only constants on the page and take up nearly 25% of the view, but you claim you're trying to draw attention to the content? Perhaps if the content you're presenting is you, then you have a successful design.
Of course this version removes the CSS stuff but I think my point stands.
I'm sorry, but isn't this just a reversion to late 90's style frame design? It seems all you've done is build it in the latest trendy standards and add a few little CSS tricks.
Minimalist design is supposed to be about presenting the content first and foremost. But the content is overshadowed by your frame. Your name and flashy CSS tricks are the only constants on the page and take up nearly 25% of the view, but you claim you're trying to draw attention to the content? Perhaps if the content you're presenting is you, then you have a successful design.
Of course this version removes the CSS stuff but I think my point stands.
A blogger discover "drafts". He shares the idea only with VIPs. I'll use Gmail drafts.
It's pretty clear that the innovation in Dustin's work wasn't the code -- it was the interface. Pointing out that Nate built Obtvse in a day from scratch is pretty meaningless and the fact that he bothered to recreate it makes it pretty clear that Dustin built something cool. As a designer... it just feels like this wasn't Nate's to open source and hopefully this will transition further from the original.
On the flipside, if the Samwer brothers launched a version of Svbtle next week in 15 markets, would the reaction be the same?
On the flipside, if the Samwer brothers launched a version of Svbtle next week in 15 markets, would the reaction be the same?
I'm just struggling to see what's so 'revolutionary' about the design. It's just a bland minimalist modern theme. Anyone could have made it.
Dustin's response was just plain rude, let's recap:
"This is almost unbelievable. No matter what you think about me or my product decisions, it is flatly wrong to ripoff work. It's shameful, even. Please take this site down and delete the Github repository. The work isn't yours. Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. The reason it's closed is really simple: it's not ready yet."
Get over yourself.
Dustin's response was just plain rude, let's recap:
"This is almost unbelievable. No matter what you think about me or my product decisions, it is flatly wrong to ripoff work. It's shameful, even. Please take this site down and delete the Github repository. The work isn't yours. Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. The reason it's closed is really simple: it's not ready yet."
Get over yourself.
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This is a really interesting circumstance.
On the one hand, I don't think the Obtuze is a theft of Subtle -- however I talk crap about Zynga's idea theft (based on look feel UX mechanics etc) all the time.
While this is a reverse of Zynga's for profit thievery - this is a "Robin-Hooding" of sorts (taking a closed shiny widget and making an open shiny widget.
Ill withhold judgement in this case as i feel it would make me a hypocrite.
On the one hand, I don't think the Obtuze is a theft of Subtle -- however I talk crap about Zynga's idea theft (based on look feel UX mechanics etc) all the time.
While this is a reverse of Zynga's for profit thievery - this is a "Robin-Hooding" of sorts (taking a closed shiny widget and making an open shiny widget.
Ill withhold judgement in this case as i feel it would make me a hypocrite.
Dumb technical question: What's the purpose of the "Aside" flag in Obtvse? I can see that it sets a class for CSS, can't see an equivalent in the Svbtle UI.
A thing to keep in mind - dcurtis is building a business.
A high-profile high-traffic no-nonsense blogging site is a very valuable asset - be it for the purpose of direct advertisement, product placements/mentions or as an acquisition target. Positioning it as exclusive and coming across as arrogant is actually a sensible marketing approach. The design is only a part of the deal, but it's the content that really matters. Cloning the design is surely not without consequences, but in a larger picture it's not that big of deal.
A high-profile high-traffic no-nonsense blogging site is a very valuable asset - be it for the purpose of direct advertisement, product placements/mentions or as an acquisition target. Positioning it as exclusive and coming across as arrogant is actually a sensible marketing approach. The design is only a part of the deal, but it's the content that really matters. Cloning the design is surely not without consequences, but in a larger picture it's not that big of deal.
By D. Curtis' own logic he ripped of the design of http://cargocollective.com/
It is NOT what the author of thisSvbtle wanted done with his project. He explicitly stated that it wasn't ready for the punlic yet and would be available when he worked things out. He might have seemed smug, but Im apalled that bulk of the HN community seemed seemed to be OK with someone essentially copying his project outright. Im not able to frame my answer better but this is not how how mutually respecting communities are built.
I really love the hover-to-trigger buttons and think DC had a great product. Why rush him to push it to market.
Dustin Curtis should really be a marketing/pr person, specifically aimed at startups.
If you want to roll your own, don't steal the man's hard design work if you're going to plagiarize his concept anyway.
Dustin is often quite cocky, but I don't wish this kind of mindless copying on anyone.
Dustin is often quite cocky, but I don't wish this kind of mindless copying on anyone.
Putting aside the morality of this particular case, I'd point out that this type of copying will discourage early sharing of concepts / projects on HN, which is not a good thing.
This is awesome, and a great step past the "Poker blog" you were running back in High school :P.
Thank you.
I'm sick of that invite-only horseshit too. If you're gonna share it privately don't announce it to the world. Don't wave a steak in front of my face and then walk it over to the VIP section.
I don't care if this is petty, I am serious as a heart attack about it now. I refuse to use Google+ for this reason, and a couple other things too.
I don't care if this is petty, I am serious as a heart attack about it now. I refuse to use Google+ for this reason, and a couple other things too.
This is pretty decent example of the entitlement syndrome I see in the design/development community. We somehow feel like all cool things should be free (as in liberty) and open source and shared, hacked, modified, and improved. And that's great! But when someone comes around with something cool that isn't all of those things like Dustin Curtis did and someone else subsequently clones it, we feel differently all of the sudden.
Why is that? We all love StackExchange but when an open source clone came out about a month ago a lot of people were screaming "rip off!" Why?
It's really hard to judge when a clone is in poor taste and when it's acceptable. It's an interesting question.
If I were judge I'd say Obtvse is perfectly legit. If Svbtle were for everyone then I'd say the clone is in bad taste but it really was only matter of time before someone brought it to the masses so long as the original would never be offered to the rest of us.
But that's beside the point. I just think its so interesting that a group of people who demand their music and media free just because they can, and extoll the virtues of (F)OSS, demanding our software be free and throwing massive tantrums when a developer of anything cool or useful doesn't publish the source can turn around and say a clone of a piece of software that's limited to a certain group is now not okay. This can be an IP issue and it's so interesting how we put ourselves in the other guy's shoes so selectively. Copyright, IP, etc. are the root of all evil one day but are useful and need to be considered the next. Maybe I'm missing something but I find popular opinion on this stuff funny at times.
This isn't an indictment of dcurtis or the creator of Obtvse. I personally think both are awesome, I love that Obtvse now exists (because I would never be invited to use Svbtle), and I think both developers are just plain awesome. For me, it's just really interesting to see how one action is wrong (along the lines of theft or infringement) but another in the same vain is seen as justified by the same people. Maybe I'm the dumb guy in the room but I see some cognitive dissonance here.
Why is that? We all love StackExchange but when an open source clone came out about a month ago a lot of people were screaming "rip off!" Why?
It's really hard to judge when a clone is in poor taste and when it's acceptable. It's an interesting question.
If I were judge I'd say Obtvse is perfectly legit. If Svbtle were for everyone then I'd say the clone is in bad taste but it really was only matter of time before someone brought it to the masses so long as the original would never be offered to the rest of us.
But that's beside the point. I just think its so interesting that a group of people who demand their music and media free just because they can, and extoll the virtues of (F)OSS, demanding our software be free and throwing massive tantrums when a developer of anything cool or useful doesn't publish the source can turn around and say a clone of a piece of software that's limited to a certain group is now not okay. This can be an IP issue and it's so interesting how we put ourselves in the other guy's shoes so selectively. Copyright, IP, etc. are the root of all evil one day but are useful and need to be considered the next. Maybe I'm missing something but I find popular opinion on this stuff funny at times.
This isn't an indictment of dcurtis or the creator of Obtvse. I personally think both are awesome, I love that Obtvse now exists (because I would never be invited to use Svbtle), and I think both developers are just plain awesome. For me, it's just really interesting to see how one action is wrong (along the lines of theft or infringement) but another in the same vain is seen as justified by the same people. Maybe I'm the dumb guy in the room but I see some cognitive dissonance here.
Then there's how us old farts blog:
vi something ...run script to maybe apply template, regen indices... ...preview locally in browser... ...maybe edit again... ...run script to upload (if want to "publish"), commit to VCS, etc...
no fancy codebase needed. no web framework, no local web server, no reinventing the wheel, etc. and the same tools used above to "blog" are also used to do lots of other productive things, so leverages the same skill set, exercises the same muscle memory, and more future-proofed.
vi something ...run script to maybe apply template, regen indices... ...preview locally in browser... ...maybe edit again... ...run script to upload (if want to "publish"), commit to VCS, etc...
no fancy codebase needed. no web framework, no local web server, no reinventing the wheel, etc. and the same tools used above to "blog" are also used to do lots of other productive things, so leverages the same skill set, exercises the same muscle memory, and more future-proofed.
Fact is, one guy cloned what was a closed platform (that had been openly announced and displayed) based on the idea and screenshots alone in about 11 hours (based on the HN submission interval).
If someone can do that--and does--you really haven't invented or created anything (substantive).
This just leaves the issue of whether the design and the assets (CSS, images, etc) are substantive and have been used without permission. Based on other comments, there seems to be no issue of asset "theft".
So does the minimalist design copy warrant outrage? Honestly, no. Someone has basically invented what amounts to a Wordpress theme.
If dcurtis can create a scalable, reliable platform for hosting it then great. It worked well enough for Wordpress.
Exclusivity and invite-only are time-honoured ways of scaling controllably and--let's be honest--creating hype and desire but if you're not ready for the copycats and it takes the copycats so little time that their HN submission makes it to the front page while yours is still there... that's your problem.