Stop using boostrap in production(blog.jenius.me)
blog.jenius.me
Stop using boostrap in production
http://blog.jenius.me/post/17162410587/stop-using-bootstrap-in-production
5 comments
This guy is a freelance designer. He hates bootstrap because he can't get work making simple styles to forms and other web elements because with Bootstrap, this work is already done!
Clearly biased... why not use Bootstrap in production? Just add your own branding to complement it!
Clearly biased... why not use Bootstrap in production? Just add your own branding to complement it!
I'm actually not freelance, I'm employed full time, and I get numerous job offers every week even so. It has nothing to do with me getting work, that's not an issue. It has to do with standards.
I explained clearly why you shouldn't use it in production, that was the entire point of the post. Trying to add your own complimenting styles usually does little to disguise the fact that it's just bootstrap. I've seen loads of sites that do this, they just add a couple divs with bigger fonts and a couple background images and call it a day - immediately recognized as bootstrap.
I explained clearly why you shouldn't use it in production, that was the entire point of the post. Trying to add your own complimenting styles usually does little to disguise the fact that it's just bootstrap. I've seen loads of sites that do this, they just add a couple divs with bigger fonts and a couple background images and call it a day - immediately recognized as bootstrap.
Where in his post did he say he hates bootstrap for the reason you offered?
I agree with him on the uniqueness issue. It's a valid point.
I agree with him on the uniqueness issue. It's a valid point.
I am a UX designer, usability, and visual designer, who makes the wireframes and mockups for developers. I also typically go in and write a lot of CSS and html as a part of the designing.
Presently, I am really in favor of developers using Bootstrap as a CSS and html baseline, and then having the custom design built on top of it.
Even with a designer, I still don't see a tremendous advantage of rolling a entire CSS (or Less) stylesheet. The developers can start building and use Bootstrap to get things rolling, and the desginer can do the hi-fi gloss designs, and then you just change the Less to match the gloss.
So you end up with a less/html template that is very solid, and a custom front end that is a clone of your glossy mockups.
It seems like you get a lot more value and stability from Bootstrap + a designer, changing Bootstrap to match your custom design.
I totally agree that in production, you shouldn't be able to recognize Bootstrap. But if you create your own "skin" on it, I think it gets you moving a whole lot faster, and with a broader coverage of css/less than you may have rolled on your own.
Engineers should be producing elegant, innovative solutions through code, and Designers should be producing elegant, intuitive design and usability through interface and design. No one really needs to reinvent how to set up a blanket CSS and html template.
Presently, I am really in favor of developers using Bootstrap as a CSS and html baseline, and then having the custom design built on top of it.
Even with a designer, I still don't see a tremendous advantage of rolling a entire CSS (or Less) stylesheet. The developers can start building and use Bootstrap to get things rolling, and the desginer can do the hi-fi gloss designs, and then you just change the Less to match the gloss.
So you end up with a less/html template that is very solid, and a custom front end that is a clone of your glossy mockups.
It seems like you get a lot more value and stability from Bootstrap + a designer, changing Bootstrap to match your custom design.
I totally agree that in production, you shouldn't be able to recognize Bootstrap. But if you create your own "skin" on it, I think it gets you moving a whole lot faster, and with a broader coverage of css/less than you may have rolled on your own.
Engineers should be producing elegant, innovative solutions through code, and Designers should be producing elegant, intuitive design and usability through interface and design. No one really needs to reinvent how to set up a blanket CSS and html template.
Thanks for making this well thought-out comment, first of all, but I think you missed the major point and the entire reason behind this article.
What you don't understand (and what I thought was clear in my post, but apparently wasn't judging by the flavor of most of the comments) is that bootstrap is not a baseline. You don't start with bootstrap and then build out custom code on top of it. You either use bootstrap or you don't use bootstrap. There's no skinning bootstrap - it is the skin. You don't start with it then change it to fit your design, you start with it, and then you are stuck and end with it.
This point that you didn't get was the entire reason behind why I made this post, and was the reason for the paragraph at the end, where I said that I was working on a different type of framework that you can start with then pull apart in a modular way as your product moves forward without losing the ability to write your own code or having to hack away at a core codebase.
What you don't understand (and what I thought was clear in my post, but apparently wasn't judging by the flavor of most of the comments) is that bootstrap is not a baseline. You don't start with bootstrap and then build out custom code on top of it. You either use bootstrap or you don't use bootstrap. There's no skinning bootstrap - it is the skin. You don't start with it then change it to fit your design, you start with it, and then you are stuck and end with it.
This point that you didn't get was the entire reason behind why I made this post, and was the reason for the paragraph at the end, where I said that I was working on a different type of framework that you can start with then pull apart in a modular way as your product moves forward without losing the ability to write your own code or having to hack away at a core codebase.
I get the reason if your post.
But saying you can't skin Bootstrap? There is nothing hard about changing all the .less files to be skinned to whatever you want. I am in the middle of doing it for a large project right now, and there won't be any visible evidence of Bootstrap.
Someone who doesn't want to design a skin might not want to take the time, but that doesn't mean it's not easy for someone who is a adept graphic designer and CSS author. Especially with .less.
Anyways, I think we're talking about different things. If you say I can't change Bootstrap to fit my design, that's just plain wrong. Every single line of every .less file can be modified, and it's probably tremendously faster and easier than starting with a reset.less and writing EVERYTHING from the ground up, let alone all the IE hacks and HTML5 workarounds.
I honestly don't see the difficulty in adding/modifying .less files, or changing class names. All the div layouts and HTML can be whatever you want. You don't have to use their grid or responsive layouts.
So saying you can't skin it is ridiculous. The entire .less source is included. Skin it as much as you want. Every single CSS and HTML aspect is customizable. And again, you are no worse off for doing so.
But saying you can't skin Bootstrap? There is nothing hard about changing all the .less files to be skinned to whatever you want. I am in the middle of doing it for a large project right now, and there won't be any visible evidence of Bootstrap.
Someone who doesn't want to design a skin might not want to take the time, but that doesn't mean it's not easy for someone who is a adept graphic designer and CSS author. Especially with .less.
Anyways, I think we're talking about different things. If you say I can't change Bootstrap to fit my design, that's just plain wrong. Every single line of every .less file can be modified, and it's probably tremendously faster and easier than starting with a reset.less and writing EVERYTHING from the ground up, let alone all the IE hacks and HTML5 workarounds.
I honestly don't see the difficulty in adding/modifying .less files, or changing class names. All the div layouts and HTML can be whatever you want. You don't have to use their grid or responsive layouts.
So saying you can't skin it is ridiculous. The entire .less source is included. Skin it as much as you want. Every single CSS and HTML aspect is customizable. And again, you are no worse off for doing so.
Bootstrap is free. Designers are not. A custom design would be better (read: fancier) for my solo projects, but as it stands, my coding skills are sharper than my designing skills.
I'll continue using bootstrap in prod.
I'll continue using bootstrap in prod.
I say use Bootstrap, just don't use it as a crutch. It's a great tool to accelerate your design process, but it's not a one-size-fits-all template for every app or site.
http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=3534924
http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=3534924
I disagree entirely, and explained why in this post. It doesn't accelerate development, it takes it over. Boostrap is not flexible. You write code their way and if you honestly want to customize the core, it's going to be just as much trouble as writing your own styles.
I would be a poster child for bootstrap if it did what you said (accelerate development but get out of your way when you need it), but it only completes half of the equation. It accelerates at the beginning, but then you are stuck with it.
I would be a poster child for bootstrap if it did what you said (accelerate development but get out of your way when you need it), but it only completes half of the equation. It accelerates at the beginning, but then you are stuck with it.
> if you honestly want to customize the core, it's going to be just as much trouble as writing your own styles
I agree, and if I were approaching a project where I knew I'd be charged with significant customization, I'd probably choose to use Compass to code my own design patterns.
That said, many, many projects don't fit that bill, and I think Bootstrap is just the first in in a series of tools that will offer beginner/intermediate developers an accelerated path to a design 'that doesn't suck'. The need for such tools is obviously greater than many imagined.
I agree, and if I were approaching a project where I knew I'd be charged with significant customization, I'd probably choose to use Compass to code my own design patterns.
That said, many, many projects don't fit that bill, and I think Bootstrap is just the first in in a series of tools that will offer beginner/intermediate developers an accelerated path to a design 'that doesn't suck'. The need for such tools is obviously greater than many imagined.
Very few users will know or care about what CSS framework or guidelines we use. They care about the value that our application provides for them. They just need an easy to use, easy to navigate way to get to what they want that we're offering. If you can afford to bring on a designer to put your own stamp on your application from day one, great. However for many of us, we want to get to a working prototype and then see if we're headed in the right direction before investing in providing a personality to our app.