This is why I don't give you a job(andorjakab.blog.hu)
andorjakab.blog.hu
This is why I don't give you a job
http://andorjakab.blog.hu/2012/01/06/this_is_why_i_don_t_give_you_a_job
529 comments
I had a female boss once. She said the exact same thing about not hiring women because they get pregnant.
I'm a man in the U.S.A. We don't have all of the laws as described in this article (most of us can be fired for any reason at any time). We're on our own. My wife got 4 weeks leave when she gave birth and that was at 50% of her normal income. Then she went back to work (and governments wonder why births are declining).
Anyway, I was shocked that my boss felt that way about women employees and because she was so matter of fact about it. She didn't have children herself and was past child-bearing age. She was very successful (several master degrees and a very wealthy husband). She was one of the best managers I ever had. But basically, she was a woman who would not hire other women.
I'm a man in the U.S.A. We don't have all of the laws as described in this article (most of us can be fired for any reason at any time). We're on our own. My wife got 4 weeks leave when she gave birth and that was at 50% of her normal income. Then she went back to work (and governments wonder why births are declining).
Anyway, I was shocked that my boss felt that way about women employees and because she was so matter of fact about it. She didn't have children herself and was past child-bearing age. She was very successful (several master degrees and a very wealthy husband). She was one of the best managers I ever had. But basically, she was a woman who would not hire other women.
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Governments like the one described in this article remind me of a massive monolithic PHP program where all the functionality is lumped into a single blob of spaghetti code. Ugh.
The negative impact of government regulations like this are proved by reducing the size of a company to one.
Example: if you start a business, and hire yourself as the first employee, should you be forced to give yourself 3 years off for maternity leave?
Of course you could never do this. It would kill your business instantly.
Just like the Unix philosophy of writing programs that do one thing and do it well. Society functions better when we have many smaller social institutions with focused roles.
Government doesn't need to do everything. There are plenty of other social constructs that have proven more capable of providing many of society's needs.
Governments should stick to the task of protecting individual liberty.
Businesses should stick to the task of providing quality and innovative goods and services.
Family, community, churches and private charity should stick to the task of taking care of those less fortunate.
We as programmers and developers can help improve society by demanding that (like our small but beautiful software), social institutions stick to singular responsibilities to which they are most suited.
The negative impact of government regulations like this are proved by reducing the size of a company to one.
Example: if you start a business, and hire yourself as the first employee, should you be forced to give yourself 3 years off for maternity leave?
Of course you could never do this. It would kill your business instantly.
Just like the Unix philosophy of writing programs that do one thing and do it well. Society functions better when we have many smaller social institutions with focused roles.
Government doesn't need to do everything. There are plenty of other social constructs that have proven more capable of providing many of society's needs.
Governments should stick to the task of protecting individual liberty.
Businesses should stick to the task of providing quality and innovative goods and services.
Family, community, churches and private charity should stick to the task of taking care of those less fortunate.
We as programmers and developers can help improve society by demanding that (like our small but beautiful software), social institutions stick to singular responsibilities to which they are most suited.
For what it's worth, the same basic setup is in place in Latin America. Brazil the effective cost is 2x the take home pay for people as well. Maternity leaves are much shorter, and you can fire somebody, you just need to pay a hefty severance. As somebody else mentioned, the way most companies work is to have each developer with their own tiny company.
This is so, so true. Whether through pure rational amoral choice, or subconsciously, every employer knows that some employees come with a hidden extra cost.
In the US, maternity (+paternity) isn't crazy in most states, and I suspect that's not a major issue. However, the fact that anyone but a white male has potential cause to sue if fired (due to their ability to claim gender or race discrimination), is a subtle but insidious reason to think twice about hiring a woman or person of color.
The truth is that these sort of market-distorting regulations, while possibly well intended, frequently end up hurting the people they are designed to help.
In the US, maternity (+paternity) isn't crazy in most states, and I suspect that's not a major issue. However, the fact that anyone but a white male has potential cause to sue if fired (due to their ability to claim gender or race discrimination), is a subtle but insidious reason to think twice about hiring a woman or person of color.
The truth is that these sort of market-distorting regulations, while possibly well intended, frequently end up hurting the people they are designed to help.
The country of Hungary is almost broke. It's big, bloated government and corruption that's the cause. Hell, the guy's post reads like Atlas Shrugged and he's John Galt. He's "stopping the motor of the world" If you haven't read it, have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged
Although each country has its own rules (maternity leaves, vacations, VAT, etc...) but the problems are common share to all of us.
Great post!
Based on the discussions I can't help but wonder how many people here recognize that this article was written for Hungary and not the USA?
That's pretty much the same reason why Milton Friedman is against a minimum wage stipulated by state.
Why are businesses forced to pay for maternity leave, and not taxpayers?
my solution: get into business where you can hire machines, not people + outsource the rest.
people like these are what class struggle is for, amirite?
Wow I always hear people talking about why Silicon Vally cannot be reproduced in Europe, but I have never seen anyone put it so pointed. Thanks for education someone in the States about the realities of some areas of Europe.
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Simple solution - gender equality for time off related to pregnancy. Paternity leave for the same length of time.
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Counterpoint to the idea in this article - I don't like the idea of at-will employment. I'll keep the political or ideological ranting off HN, but in short, I don't think that being able to fire any employee for any reason whatsoever is a good idea.
Interesting to hear how things are in other parts of the world, though.
EDIT: If you're downvoting, by the way, please leave a comment about why. I don't really care too much about the karma, but I'd love to hear why people disagree (and for the record, this comment is at -1 at the time I edit).
Interesting to hear how things are in other parts of the world, though.
EDIT: If you're downvoting, by the way, please leave a comment about why. I don't really care too much about the karma, but I'd love to hear why people disagree (and for the record, this comment is at -1 at the time I edit).
[deleted]
What a douche.
Guess what? People are messy. But more importantly, people are valuable.
The author can whine all he likes. But really, try getting something done without them. Oh, wait, he says he's not going to even try... why are we reading this?
Guess what? People are messy. But more importantly, people are valuable.
The author can whine all he likes. But really, try getting something done without them. Oh, wait, he says he's not going to even try... why are we reading this?
And this is, in large part, why startups work so much 'better' than larger companies.
Startup hires tend to be somewhat self-selecting, as the jobs tend to draw young males without families. The risk of the job makes it more appealing to those types, but the field is generally overrun by men, which is a topic that seems to come up every few months as well.
What that means is that the eco-system is better for lean startups. You don't have to have the 'buffer' budget over actual costs that corporations do. Large companies typically offer paid vacation, matching 401k, disability leave, maternity leave and all that jazz.
If you're working on a lean startup right now, ask yourself what would happen if your lead developer disappeared for three months.
This is one of the real disadvantages we face as a nation because, in large part, the people we outsource labor to don't have these protections.
Startup hires tend to be somewhat self-selecting, as the jobs tend to draw young males without families. The risk of the job makes it more appealing to those types, but the field is generally overrun by men, which is a topic that seems to come up every few months as well.
What that means is that the eco-system is better for lean startups. You don't have to have the 'buffer' budget over actual costs that corporations do. Large companies typically offer paid vacation, matching 401k, disability leave, maternity leave and all that jazz.
If you're working on a lean startup right now, ask yourself what would happen if your lead developer disappeared for three months.
This is one of the real disadvantages we face as a nation because, in large part, the people we outsource labor to don't have these protections.
While what he says may be true, without employees, his business can't scale. What he is describing is the difficulty of startups competing against established competitors who have a reliable source of revenue. In many countries, smaller businesses get some form of exemption.
Sort of "meta", but interesting:
http://andorjakab.blog.hu/2012/01/03/hungary_not_funny_anymo...
That blogpost made me kind of like a celeb, a bloghero or something. Fact is, that single blogpost generated half a million pageviews, 91141 Facebook likes in a matter of days. It was covered on national television, I was "the blogger of the week" at the biggest local blog provider (blog.hu), a whole bunch of responses were written by big names in the trade.
Newmedia analysts were trying to figure out what made it such a big meme, out of the blue, from totally nothing, without any mainstream media promotion. People shared it like hell, on Facebook. Likes were rising by hunderds, by the second. Like this: 30145, F5, 30359 ...
That blogpost made me kind of like a celeb, a bloghero or something. Fact is, that single blogpost generated half a million pageviews, 91141 Facebook likes in a matter of days. It was covered on national television, I was "the blogger of the week" at the biggest local blog provider (blog.hu), a whole bunch of responses were written by big names in the trade.
Newmedia analysts were trying to figure out what made it such a big meme, out of the blue, from totally nothing, without any mainstream media promotion. People shared it like hell, on Facebook. Likes were rising by hunderds, by the second. Like this: 30145, F5, 30359 ...
More and more you are compelled to own the corporation that represents you in business. So we can get around onerous government regulation. We are taxed to pay for the private-public crony-capitalism complex. It may be costly or unconscionable for me to hire you--or to be hired and paid as an individual taxpayer--and let that money go freely into corruption. But we can hire the other's company. How your company uses its money and treats its employees is your business.
I submitted a post about this at one point, but Hungary is going through really terrible cultural and political troubles. I really feel for the Hungarian people - in that context, the frustration in this post makes much more sense.
The solution to all such problems is as obvious as it is unlikely to happen. It's not "women get six years' vacation if they want it". It's not "at-will employment". It's complete freedom of contract in the context of secure, effective, and responsible government.
You and your employer come to an ex ante mutually beneficial agreement. A secure and effective government will enforce such a contract, unless it represents an egregious abuse by one of the parties. A responsible government will formulate a wise definition of egregious abuse.
Once you start to enumerate all unenforceable contracts, you will come to understand how far we are from this situation. And when you look at how insecure, ineffective, and irresponsible governments are, you'll see why we may never get there.
You and your employer come to an ex ante mutually beneficial agreement. A secure and effective government will enforce such a contract, unless it represents an egregious abuse by one of the parties. A responsible government will formulate a wise definition of egregious abuse.
Once you start to enumerate all unenforceable contracts, you will come to understand how far we are from this situation. And when you look at how insecure, ineffective, and irresponsible governments are, you'll see why we may never get there.
In Russia if you don't minimize taxation with tricks and do it straight, you pay like 1,2$ for each 1$ your company makes. So mostly companies aims for super profitable niches, like selling chinese shit with 1000-5000% margin.
This was a really long, enjoyable article. My question is, how does the company that he works for manage to pay him enough to buy a 90k flat? Are they shaddy like the other companies he described? Is he shaddy and not paying his taxes? How did his employer manage to do it and why can't he just follow that path?
The author realizes that these 5 restrictions don't even apply in Silicon Valley, right?
1. I can fire you, if I want to.
California has at-will employment, but you sure can't fire someone based on gender or age anywhere in the United States—and he opens with his desire to do just that.
2. If VAT goes down to at least 20%, better yet 15%.
Sales tax alone is not 20%+$.01 anywhere in the Bay Area, but there are a surprising number of added taxes here and there—Healthy San Francisco, for example, or the California state gasoline taxes—that can make the surcharges on consumer goods add up to that level.
3. If the state takes away "only" 30% of your money.
Federal income tax + California state income tax + FICA significantly exceeds that for most people in the technology industry in Silicon Valley.
4. If higher income is not exponentially punished.
The US certainly does have a progressive income tax scheme.
5. If the states punishes corruption instead of decent companies.
No-bid contracts, anyone? The US is hardly free of corruption.
He's asking for a place that doesn't exist. Moreover, it's a place I wouldn't want to live in; I don't want to live in a place where it's legal to discriminate against minorities, in particular.
1. I can fire you, if I want to.
California has at-will employment, but you sure can't fire someone based on gender or age anywhere in the United States—and he opens with his desire to do just that.
2. If VAT goes down to at least 20%, better yet 15%.
Sales tax alone is not 20%+$.01 anywhere in the Bay Area, but there are a surprising number of added taxes here and there—Healthy San Francisco, for example, or the California state gasoline taxes—that can make the surcharges on consumer goods add up to that level.
3. If the state takes away "only" 30% of your money.
Federal income tax + California state income tax + FICA significantly exceeds that for most people in the technology industry in Silicon Valley.
4. If higher income is not exponentially punished.
The US certainly does have a progressive income tax scheme.
5. If the states punishes corruption instead of decent companies.
No-bid contracts, anyone? The US is hardly free of corruption.
He's asking for a place that doesn't exist. Moreover, it's a place I wouldn't want to live in; I don't want to live in a place where it's legal to discriminate against minorities, in particular.
You might not hear about it all that much because it isn't cool to blog about it, but doesn't it make sense that women make less money when, on average, it costs more to hire them?
This isn't about right or wrong, it's math.
> Yes, social responsibility is a bitch for the individual businessman. Boo hoo hoo. - henrikschroder
Social responsibility for a business is to provide goods to the public through voluntary exchange while adhering to the non-aggression principle. Every other benefit should be provided by personal savings, family support, and voluntary donation. If you really want forced help to new mothers or other "disadvantaged" people then provide it by the state where the costs are transparent. The people hurt most by these policies are women who do not want to be mothers.
> But for society as a whole, these things are good. - henrikschroder
I disagree. These interventionist practices increase tension between subcultures. They turn the world into an "us" vs "them" environment, where it would be more optimal to have a "me" and "you" environment.
For example: Affirmative action. Many blacks that get into Harvard and graduate are treated as sub-students by employers like major banks. The reason is that by definition they have, on average, poorer standings when they enter university. A black person that truly deserved to get into Harvard is indistinguishable from one that got there only after the bump from affirmative action. Employers remembering their time at Harvard recall that the black people in there class, while smart, were not of the same caliber as the rest of the class on average.
Furthermore, since affirmative action shifts the whole bell curve to the right, blacks are disproportionally more likely to drop out of university, since they are likely the least academically qualified to be there. This creates further racism as over the years professors tend to note that the blacks they teach tend to drop out.
Another example: Social Security. While the baby boomers were all working they enjoyed some of the lowest rates around. Now forward projections show that the US is unable to meet its SS obligations. Again turning it into "us" vs "them" (Gen X/Y/Z vs Baby Boomers).
> Long maternity (and paternity!) leave is good for the children that will one day grow up and become productive members of society. Having laws around parental leave preventing discrimination means that society doesn't have to deal with paying unemployment welfare for women around 30, and having a hard time re-integrating them into the workforce at 40. Instead this cost is spread out among all the companies in the form of employment laws. - henrikschroder
People make choices. My choice may be to work until I have enough money to where I can earn enough interest passively while I go to Africa and join Engineers without Borders. Or my choice might be to have children. Either way, my productivity, savings, and future goals need to be harmonized for my plans to come to fruition.
Most responsible, productive people find it very easy to return to the workforce. Sometimes they are a step down or two (as in the case of my mother, who was a former research manager at IBM before she had my brother and me) but if their skills haven't eroded, they quickly gain back, and even exceed their position (she's now fairly high up at AT&T managing the internet pipes between Asia and the Americas, as well as VPN services to huge companies like Siemens).
If the problem that right to return to work solves is post child rearing un/underemployment, and the solution is to stem from the government, then the government should set up organizations that empower employment seeking mothers, not coerce organizations to hire them again.
Furthermore, I've never met any business owner that didn't want to rehire a former staff member after they have had their maternity leave. The only time I've seen someone lean on that law was when they knew they were going to get fired (written up twice out of three times) so they had a child to reset the write-up policy.
> I understand that all businesses wish to have a workforce consisting only of young well-educated males that are never sick, never take vacations and work lots of overtime, but there's a cost to getting that, and almost all businesses forget, or refuse to understand the value society provides to them. You want a workforce? Sure, it's gonna cost you, both in corporate taxes, and in social responsibility by employing less desireable individuals. Tough shit, pay up.
First off, most businesses do not want a workforce of men like me. Young, well-educated, male, lots of OT. We're too much like cowboys. We hate process. We hate meetings. We might be great at startups, but we are terrible in most other organizations, and yet most of us don't even know it.
As for the cost, "that is what the money is for" if it is citizens that want to be educated. Citizens that want to build roads. Citizens that want to have a safe and peaceful place to live and work. Citizens that want to buy products in an open market. Then those citizens will vote for those things. If you want to tax and impose rules on corporations then extend them the right to vote. No taxation without representation and all that (ironically, this is why governments are taken over by lobbyists, since the defense for having lobbyists was that the government makes rules that impact corporations and that corporations need "sway" in congress to protect their interests). Otherwise, recognize that the products that you use are brought by corporations to you, something most people forget.
> When you spend 3000 Euros to hire someone who nets 1500 Euros, the difference is not "stolen" by the government, it's what you pay to have access to a pool of highly educated potential employees who get free(ish) health care, childcare, pensions that you as an employer don't have to worry about. - mtts
It depends on how it has been "spent". From the employer's perspective income tax should be none of his concern. If the citizens vote for a 50% income tax then that is what they should see on their payment stub.
> Being from Europe originally and having lived in Silicon Valley now for more than 10 years, I did the math on comparative taxes. In the end, it's a wash. If you take into account everything. I make more money in the US. But my retirement costs are higher. And by the time I put two kids through college (college is free in some European countries), it basically balances the extra cash I made over a 20-year career. - alain94040
I did the math from Ontario, Canada to Texas a couple years ago. Even with a 10k bump in pay and full benefits, it was a wash. America pays a lot of taxes.
> I propose a new law for Hungary saying that every company with more than 10 employees should have the same percentage of female/male as that of the population or in special cases (like with IT) that of the field at universities. This would stop some companies profiting from healthy 30 year old single men, and then throw them away like rags once they start feeling the pressure or want children. - hmottestad
That would be disastrous. Special cases governed by whom? Elected officials? There is about another 500 pages of laws. Logging towns, IT, Nurses, flight attendants, basketball players, elementary teachers, the list goes on and on.