Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?
348 comments
Keep in mind many of the salary transparency laws have minimum employee counts before they come into effect, and iirc, the new york one requires an existing employee being located there before it comes into effect.
I'm firmly on the side of salary transparency, even if a company technically doesn't have to because of its size - but I suspect many of the YC companies in question here are small enough to not be affected by some of these laws.
I'm firmly on the side of salary transparency, even if a company technically doesn't have to because of its size - but I suspect many of the YC companies in question here are small enough to not be affected by some of these laws.
I've been in the job board / HR Tech space for a while, and every time I see a state pass a law requiring advertising the salary range, I'm reminded of a few facts:
* Showing your salary range as long as it is at market wage or higher delivers 14% more applicants. It is a good idea to show salary on job ads.
* If you don't give the job board a salary range, they will use tools like salary.com or their own tools to show an "estimated salary range" on your job so they pick up more clicks when they syndicate your job to other sources (i.e. email alerts and other job boards).
* If you are uncompetitve on wages, fix it. Even though there's a lot of doom and gloom out there, the truth is that unemployment did not go up in November.
* If you advertise a job respond to applicants quickly - as in within minutes of the application. A single day of delay in response causes 28% of candidates to become unresponsive to recruiters (this is from our company's research). It drops to 51% become unresponsive 48 hours later.
* Showing your salary range as long as it is at market wage or higher delivers 14% more applicants. It is a good idea to show salary on job ads.
* If you don't give the job board a salary range, they will use tools like salary.com or their own tools to show an "estimated salary range" on your job so they pick up more clicks when they syndicate your job to other sources (i.e. email alerts and other job boards).
* If you are uncompetitve on wages, fix it. Even though there's a lot of doom and gloom out there, the truth is that unemployment did not go up in November.
* If you advertise a job respond to applicants quickly - as in within minutes of the application. A single day of delay in response causes 28% of candidates to become unresponsive to recruiters (this is from our company's research). It drops to 51% become unresponsive 48 hours later.
To those who think it's not YC / HN's problem, you're missing that HN literally has a Job Board: https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs
This is a core part of their offering, it's not just user generated content, it's YC companies posting on YC's job board.
This is a core part of their offering, it's not just user generated content, it's YC companies posting on YC's job board.
A friend of mine asked about one of these recently and they wouldn't give him a salary range, so he reported them to the attorney general and they immediately put one on their website. Can't hurt to ask (although in that case they may only give it to you, if they do, move on to step 2 anyways), then if they don't update it report them and you'll be doing everyone else a favor too.
I found an example on today's front page (Rutter): https://jobs.ashbyhq.com/rutter/7b222f5f-cd46-4592-9cf8-6cd1...
No salary range posted, job is in NYC.
No salary range posted, job is in NYC.
There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved, so I think it's worth pointing out that this is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month. It's been on the way for a while, so it's not “sudden”, but it’s still a new thing that people are figuring out and it’s easier to forget about if you’re in the habit of re-using old listings. (Not about OP, whose reminder is helpful and in good faith!)
Contact the company, and tell them they need to publish their salary range. Or else you'll report them to the NYC Attorney General (or whoever is in charge of this thing). Maybe they're ignorant. Or they're hoping noone calls them out on this. Either way, make sure they know the consequences if they don't publish it
YC’s HN altered the submission in a way that erases the previously stated fact that this behavior is a violation of NYC law, which leaves the discussion unresponsive to the question and also risks the appearance of trying to hide the illegal behavior.
There were probably other reasons behind the change but to preserve the meaning of the post something about this being a possible/likely violation of nyc law should IMO be added back to the post.
There were probably other reasons behind the change but to preserve the meaning of the post something about this being a possible/likely violation of nyc law should IMO be added back to the post.
Conflict-of-interest evident in the HN re-title-fication of this post.
Recall that making something less salacious when you are the subject is quite different from toning down clickbait headlines when you're wearing your neutral-editorial hat.
Original title was 'Why are some YC companies breaking the law?' And frankly, that's a great question.
Admittedly not-so-great is the absence of any specific example on the OP, but that's another matter.
The post is about law-abidingness and to change that to protect YC on a chat board run by YC is sketch, YC.
Recall that making something less salacious when you are the subject is quite different from toning down clickbait headlines when you're wearing your neutral-editorial hat.
Original title was 'Why are some YC companies breaking the law?' And frankly, that's a great question.
Admittedly not-so-great is the absence of any specific example on the OP, but that's another matter.
The post is about law-abidingness and to change that to protect YC on a chat board run by YC is sketch, YC.
Probably because HN is not a law enforcement agency for New York City. The law has some exceptions, perhaps those apply. Why not contact the company and politely ask for the salary range?
Regional laws differ, and the exact same text can have completely different implications in another jurisdiction.
For example, Employee-at-will contracts popular in the US are illegal in other zones, and not worth the paper they are printed on in places like Canada.
This is a good reason to always hire a local law firm to review your paperwork, and immigration lawyers to check the intended working arrangements.
Trust that no matter how you personally think things should be done, the law becomes rather expensive if you assume local laws apply internationally.
This lesson is expensive if you learn it the hard way. Also, one may find most firms are allergic to legal posturing, and candidates with an aggressive lack of impulse control. =)
For example, Employee-at-will contracts popular in the US are illegal in other zones, and not worth the paper they are printed on in places like Canada.
This is a good reason to always hire a local law firm to review your paperwork, and immigration lawyers to check the intended working arrangements.
Trust that no matter how you personally think things should be done, the law becomes rather expensive if you assume local laws apply internationally.
This lesson is expensive if you learn it the hard way. Also, one may find most firms are allergic to legal posturing, and candidates with an aggressive lack of impulse control. =)
For me the initial response time isn’t the biggest deal (and I’m surprised the effect size of a single day delay is so large). What matters more is having a quick turnaround whenever I give you a set of times from my schedule. Companies are so bad at this that I’ve started giving them only fractions of my available time (which makes it harder to schedule interviews). I’m not sure what the solution is because I can’t give you 100% of my available time if you are going to sit on it for three days before scheduling. I’m talking to other employers and need to schedule things with them too.
I assume this doesn't apply to most YC companies, but the smallest companies (with fewer than four employees) are exempted from the law: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/...
It's nice that there's a carveout for small companies, who don't need more friction as they're trying to get off the ground.
It's nice that there's a carveout for small companies, who don't need more friction as they're trying to get off the ground.
because everybody tries to get away with whatever they think they can get away with.
If you maintain this wide-eyed innocence you will be no more than everyone else's victim.
If you maintain this wide-eyed innocence you will be no more than everyone else's victim.
Are salary ranges actually meaningful?
To be fair I don't reply to an offer that does not state the pay, but I've been a victim of bait and switch many times.
Notably, when going through all the interview stages and being told I have been accepted only to find out in the contract that the salary is much different from what has been offered.
They were hoping that I would agree given I have invested so much time going to interviews and so on.
The excuse? "We have gone over budget with hiring and unfortunately now that the maximum we can offer, we are very sorry."
To be fair I don't reply to an offer that does not state the pay, but I've been a victim of bait and switch many times.
Notably, when going through all the interview stages and being told I have been accepted only to find out in the contract that the salary is much different from what has been offered.
They were hoping that I would agree given I have invested so much time going to interviews and so on.
The excuse? "We have gone over budget with hiring and unfortunately now that the maximum we can offer, we are very sorry."
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Curious: can you post a job that isn't for folks in states that have this requirement? Would you have to explicitly say that or only upon inquiry?
A lot of people are acting out of anger, as if the companies are conspiring to keep the salary secret.
Could it just be they made an innocent mistake?
Could it just be they made an innocent mistake?
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Is it malicious? Maybe... is it stupidity? Certainly.
Just inform the companies when you see it and then report them if they refuse to disclose and update the listing.
It actually tells you more about the moral compass of the company if they refuse to disclose which I would find valuable.
Just inform the companies when you see it and then report them if they refuse to disclose and update the listing.
It actually tells you more about the moral compass of the company if they refuse to disclose which I would find valuable.
The real question is why HN is filled with people that have values completely orthogonal to the VC space, like people wanting to leverage the law to make other people do things.
Title of this post was changed btw: not all NYC companies are not posting salary ranges. And it isn't ONLY an issue in NYC, either. Very misleading title.
Salary ranges with a 60k spread. Progress!
At this point get rid of negotiation straight up. Ether someone is qualified or not.
If not create a junior role for them, or not hire em.
At this point get rid of negotiation straight up. Ether someone is qualified or not.
If not create a junior role for them, or not hire em.
Maybe they are fishing for a willing plaintiff in a planned test case to challenge the law on a constitutional basis.
Report to AG, if a company doesn't incentivize its staff to be legally compliant its a risk to the business
What is the downside of posting a salary range of $1 to $1m for every job? Is there some kind of enforcement that it has to be someone at the company making the amount of money for the job with the same title?
It's acceptable to me.
Is there an obligation in the law to list salary range at every recruiting reference?
If not, is HN now obligated to monitor every official posting for salary range?
If you have a problem with the company, report the company.
Is there an obligation in the law to list salary range at every recruiting reference?
If not, is HN now obligated to monitor every official posting for salary range?
If you have a problem with the company, report the company.
Same thing for anyone posting Colorado jobs
You have to have a certain number of employees for these laws to apply
Wow
I can't comment on those posts, so I wasn't able to do any type of callout. I thought I remember being able to comment on them, but I think that functionality was removed ...
Why is this acceptable?