Ask HN: Moving to Tokyo as a software engineer
6 comments
Tokyo in general pays less than America or even China for software engineers, just be warned. If you are at Google, you can see if you can work in their office there. Facebook also has a Japanese operation, but most of it is localization rather than worldwide R&D. A friend of mine worked as a designer for Phillips for a few years and enjoyed it, but I don't know of many engineers who did the same.
To be honest, if you really are that senior, it would be much easier and financially rewarding to work in China if you are interested in Asia.
To be honest, if you really are that senior, it would be much easier and financially rewarding to work in China if you are interested in Asia.
Wow, I knew that Japan compensated engineers poorly but didn't realize that China pays well in comparison.
Unfortunately, money isn't as much the issue. I can afford and would be willing to live in Tokyo for a couple years and work on side projects, but this is not possible visa-wise.
Unfortunately, money isn't as much the issue. I can afford and would be willing to live in Tokyo for a couple years and work on side projects, but this is not possible visa-wise.
It isn't that Japan compensates senior engineers poorly, it is just that China compensates them well.
If all you want to do is work away there and you aren't concerned about pay, maybe you could get a job as a visiting researcher or teacher.
If all you want to do is work away there and you aren't concerned about pay, maybe you could get a job as a visiting researcher or teacher.
My rationale for wanting to continue in tech is that my CV will not have weird gaps like "took a year off to teach English" and the money is presumably still better, even despite the low salaries there.
If you are actually a senior programmer in a FAANG company while just being your mid 20s, a gap year is not going to affect your resume much at all.
If your only problem is the visa, you can do what I'm planning to do starting this July: enroll in a Japanese language school in Tokyo.
They have very affordable tuition (compared to college), they will take care of the visa for you, up to 2 years, you will have half the day and the weekends off, to see the country and/or work on side projects on your own, and you will be learning the language to boot.
They have very affordable tuition (compared to college), they will take care of the visa for you, up to 2 years, you will have half the day and the weekends off, to see the country and/or work on side projects on your own, and you will be learning the language to boot.
Are there any age limits, and how about cost (roughly)?
Sorry about the late reply. "Very affordable" was not the right choice of words. It's certainly cheaper than most colleges, but it may be too high, depending on your budget. Anyways, it varies by school and there are a TON of language schools for foreigners.
Here are the prices they gave me for the Intercultural Institute of Japan, at their Iidabashi or Akihabara centres, both in Tokyo. Tuition is ¥850,000/year ($7,800) plus textbooks and accommodation.
http://www.incul.com/eng/japanese_school/
Accommodation can be in the school dorms, at ¥67,000/month for 2 people, utilities included ($310/month each.) Or you can rent a single-room apartment in Tokyo, which starts at ¥60,000 ($550) plus utilities (water, power...) Finally there's the home-stay option, which costs around ¥5,000 ($46) per night, including breakfast, dinner, and otherwise living with a Japanese family.
All things considered, Tokyo can be quite expensive, so if you are on a budget, choosing a school in a minor town and only visiting Tokyo on the weekends may be the best option. Japan has excellent public transport, as you probably know.
Some people choose to stay in the campus dorms during the week and at their Japanese family's during weekends, to avoid commuting too much, while still getting a glimpse of the Japanese lifestyle. Others choose a school and dorms in one town, and a Japanese host family in another town, so they can study in Tokyo, for example, but have a place to stay in Kyoto during weekends and holidays. If you are below 30 you also have the option of Borderless Tokyo share houses:
http://borderless-tokyo.com/
In my case, I'm in my late 30s, so this entire thing is already crazy enough! I'm not sure home-staying at a Japanese family would be appropriate. I'll have to talk with my school about that. If it's OK, then I may try it. Otherwise, I'll start with the dorms and later on move to an apartment.
Another well known school is ISI - International Study Institute, with a big campus in Takadanobaba (Tokyo) and centres in Ikebukuro (Tokyo), Kyoto, and Nagano. This may be a more serious school and university? I'm not sure. You can see the fees on their website, they are similar to the ones for Intercultural:
http://www.isi-education.com/
Then there's Lexis Japan, with a modern campus in Kobe:
http://www.lexisjapan.com/
And then there's Kyoto Minsai Japanese Language School; Arc Academy at Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto; and so many more!
Choosing a school is really overwhelming, considering it will dictate how much you spend, where you live for the next year or two, how well you'll learn the language, what people you'll meet and what options it will open for you once school is over.
Later today I'll be speaking with someone from my local school (I've been taking Japanese classes at night) who manages visas and applications to these schools, so I'll probably have more info and will hopefully have decided where to apply myself!
School terms start in April, but most of them also accept enrollment in July, October, and January. They have students of all levels, so they will test you and place you in a class appropriate to yours.
Be mindful that you have to start doing visa paperwork at least 6 months before your departure. I hope I can still make it for July. Among other things, you have to show the Japanese government your bank statement, to prove that you can afford the school tuition and living expenses for the duration of the course; proof of school enrollment or occupation for the past year, to show that you have not been unemployed; and your high school or higher diploma. Other than that, I don't think they have any age restrictions.
Here are the prices they gave me for the Intercultural Institute of Japan, at their Iidabashi or Akihabara centres, both in Tokyo. Tuition is ¥850,000/year ($7,800) plus textbooks and accommodation.
http://www.incul.com/eng/japanese_school/
Accommodation can be in the school dorms, at ¥67,000/month for 2 people, utilities included ($310/month each.) Or you can rent a single-room apartment in Tokyo, which starts at ¥60,000 ($550) plus utilities (water, power...) Finally there's the home-stay option, which costs around ¥5,000 ($46) per night, including breakfast, dinner, and otherwise living with a Japanese family.
All things considered, Tokyo can be quite expensive, so if you are on a budget, choosing a school in a minor town and only visiting Tokyo on the weekends may be the best option. Japan has excellent public transport, as you probably know.
Some people choose to stay in the campus dorms during the week and at their Japanese family's during weekends, to avoid commuting too much, while still getting a glimpse of the Japanese lifestyle. Others choose a school and dorms in one town, and a Japanese host family in another town, so they can study in Tokyo, for example, but have a place to stay in Kyoto during weekends and holidays. If you are below 30 you also have the option of Borderless Tokyo share houses:
http://borderless-tokyo.com/
In my case, I'm in my late 30s, so this entire thing is already crazy enough! I'm not sure home-staying at a Japanese family would be appropriate. I'll have to talk with my school about that. If it's OK, then I may try it. Otherwise, I'll start with the dorms and later on move to an apartment.
Another well known school is ISI - International Study Institute, with a big campus in Takadanobaba (Tokyo) and centres in Ikebukuro (Tokyo), Kyoto, and Nagano. This may be a more serious school and university? I'm not sure. You can see the fees on their website, they are similar to the ones for Intercultural:
http://www.isi-education.com/
Then there's Lexis Japan, with a modern campus in Kobe:
http://www.lexisjapan.com/
And then there's Kyoto Minsai Japanese Language School; Arc Academy at Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto; and so many more!
Choosing a school is really overwhelming, considering it will dictate how much you spend, where you live for the next year or two, how well you'll learn the language, what people you'll meet and what options it will open for you once school is over.
Later today I'll be speaking with someone from my local school (I've been taking Japanese classes at night) who manages visas and applications to these schools, so I'll probably have more info and will hopefully have decided where to apply myself!
School terms start in April, but most of them also accept enrollment in July, October, and January. They have students of all levels, so they will test you and place you in a class appropriate to yours.
Be mindful that you have to start doing visa paperwork at least 6 months before your departure. I hope I can still make it for July. Among other things, you have to show the Japanese government your bank statement, to prove that you can afford the school tuition and living expenses for the duration of the course; proof of school enrollment or occupation for the past year, to show that you have not been unemployed; and your high school or higher diploma. Other than that, I don't think they have any age restrictions.
Thanks, this is very informative.
So as this conversation started, your plan is to do the language thing for the visa and then try to transfer into an engineering position?
So as this conversation started, your plan is to do the language thing for the visa and then try to transfer into an engineering position?
My plan is to attend one of these language schools for one or two years, in order to:
1. Actually learn the language. Even if I could find a job in Japan that didn't require being fluent in Japanese, which I probably could, I wouldn't want to. It's going to be hard enough to live and work in a foreign country, especially one where you'll always be considered an outsider even if you live there your entire life (there's much about this on the Internet if you care to know more) that I really don't plan to get a job before achieving basic fluency. Not being able to communicate with the people around you is the most frustrating experience. Not being able to read and write is called illiteracy and is just as bad. School it is, for one year at the very minimum, maybe two.
2. Take an extended break from work, because I need it (and luckily I can afford it.) But I don't want to do nothing on a beach or backpack from place to place. I'm not good at vacationing in general and I hate travelling. I know I need to stay in a stable place and keep myself occupied with goals and a schedule.
3. Experience a longer stay in Japan (not as a tourist) to evaluate whether I really prefer it to my home country (Italy.) I think I will, for several reasons, but you never know, I may hate it there after a while. So whenever I decide to end the language school experience (tuition is paid 6 months at a time, so you have some flexibility) I will know whether to look for a job there or not.
The student visa is just the most practical way to achieve these 3 goals.
Right now I'm still debating which school and which town to go to, which is a HUGE choice, that could make or break the experience. Here is a page from ISI that summarizes the strengths of studying in Tokyo, Nagano, and Kyoto:
http://www.isi-education.com/location/
Here is a similar page from ARC Academy about Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto:
http://japanese.arc-academy.net/en/
Finally, Intercultural has its school and student apartments in Akihabara, which is the center of modern Japanese subculture (anime, tech, games) which I cannot say I dislike, as well as being right in the center of Tokyo:
http://www.incul.com/eng/japanese_school/
If you are considering this route too, what are your thoughts on the various cities and schools?
The ISI campus of Takadanobaba looks like a huge college campus, with mostly college-age kids from Asia, while the Akihabara school is much smaller and should have people of all ages from all over the world. The ISI school in Ikebukuro would be great for meeting actual Japanese people, because it's in the same building as their Business school, but they don't have any place left for this July.
Nagano is too much remote a location for me. But Kyoto is an awesome city, and Osaka and Kobe seem great places too. They are less expensive and crowded than Tokyo, while still being big, modern cities... but they are not Tokyo...
Damn it's hard! I need to make up my mind and fill an application form in a couple of days, if I am to get my visa for July. Wish me luck.
1. Actually learn the language. Even if I could find a job in Japan that didn't require being fluent in Japanese, which I probably could, I wouldn't want to. It's going to be hard enough to live and work in a foreign country, especially one where you'll always be considered an outsider even if you live there your entire life (there's much about this on the Internet if you care to know more) that I really don't plan to get a job before achieving basic fluency. Not being able to communicate with the people around you is the most frustrating experience. Not being able to read and write is called illiteracy and is just as bad. School it is, for one year at the very minimum, maybe two.
2. Take an extended break from work, because I need it (and luckily I can afford it.) But I don't want to do nothing on a beach or backpack from place to place. I'm not good at vacationing in general and I hate travelling. I know I need to stay in a stable place and keep myself occupied with goals and a schedule.
3. Experience a longer stay in Japan (not as a tourist) to evaluate whether I really prefer it to my home country (Italy.) I think I will, for several reasons, but you never know, I may hate it there after a while. So whenever I decide to end the language school experience (tuition is paid 6 months at a time, so you have some flexibility) I will know whether to look for a job there or not.
The student visa is just the most practical way to achieve these 3 goals.
Right now I'm still debating which school and which town to go to, which is a HUGE choice, that could make or break the experience. Here is a page from ISI that summarizes the strengths of studying in Tokyo, Nagano, and Kyoto:
http://www.isi-education.com/location/
Here is a similar page from ARC Academy about Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto:
http://japanese.arc-academy.net/en/
Finally, Intercultural has its school and student apartments in Akihabara, which is the center of modern Japanese subculture (anime, tech, games) which I cannot say I dislike, as well as being right in the center of Tokyo:
http://www.incul.com/eng/japanese_school/
If you are considering this route too, what are your thoughts on the various cities and schools?
The ISI campus of Takadanobaba looks like a huge college campus, with mostly college-age kids from Asia, while the Akihabara school is much smaller and should have people of all ages from all over the world. The ISI school in Ikebukuro would be great for meeting actual Japanese people, because it's in the same building as their Business school, but they don't have any place left for this July.
Nagano is too much remote a location for me. But Kyoto is an awesome city, and Osaka and Kobe seem great places too. They are less expensive and crowded than Tokyo, while still being big, modern cities... but they are not Tokyo...
Damn it's hard! I need to make up my mind and fill an application form in a couple of days, if I am to get my visa for July. Wish me luck.
I'm more interested in China than OP. How would I go about finding a job in China? Ideally 1-2 years. My Chinese is mamahuhu.
As someone (who is white) that works for a China company, mamahuhu (马马虎虎) may or may not be enough. I have been learning for years and still have speaking gaps, however I can read and write way better.
I'm more on the ordering food and asking for directions level.
If you are a good experienced programmer, try Microsoft China.
Do you know if China have hard requirements of a degree? Or is X years of working experience good enough?
Yes. Not that I’m aware of.
One of my ex bosses came to china without a degree and they wouldn’t issue him the work permit. He had to beg the university he attended but barely didn’t graduate from to issue him a degree with his work experience used for the remaining credits.
One of my ex bosses came to china without a degree and they wouldn’t issue him the work permit. He had to beg the university he attended but barely didn’t graduate from to issue him a degree with his work experience used for the remaining credits.
There's a secret way to go to Japan on a very long visa: start your own company with a Japanese co-fouder and go there on a management visa. You can get up to a 5-year visa and it does NOT require a $50k investment.
If you want to stay longer, the only option through marriage.
If you want to stay longer, the only option through marriage.
> start your own company with a Japanese co-fouder and go there on a management visa
Will look into this, thanks!
Will look into this, thanks!
This is what I did. I hired someone already local and he handed the company to me (didn't want risk, mainly wanted the salary, we were already well funded) Be aware it does take a bit of capital though.
Is there anyway we could get in touch? I'd like to have someone I could ask questions once I do this myself.
Email is in profile.
You might need to find a company that provide visa sponsorship, some recruiting company are willing to do the paperwork, there is a surprising amount of company in Tokyo where you could work using only English.
Although Everyday life could be difficult without knowing a little of Japanese language and renting apartment is quite expensive at the start.
Although Everyday life could be difficult without knowing a little of Japanese language and renting apartment is quite expensive at the start.
I don't know your citizenship. But if you are from an eligible country (france, UK, Germany...) you are still eligible for a Working Holiday visa. It's a 1 year visa, quite easy to get.
Unfortunately, the US citizens are not allowed to obtain this visa.
I lived in Tokyo for a year, and it's actually quite easy to get a job as a computer engineer there. Several of my friend came with a tourist visa (or Working Holiday visa) and managed to get a visa sponsorship from companies who wanted to hire them. I'm not saying it's super easy, but it is doable. And believe me, there is a shortage of web / mobile engineer in Tokyo.
Finally, don't worry too much about the gap year. Just go there and you'll find something. Go to events and meetups and you ll find plenty of people to talk to. You'll find a lot of opportunities that way.
Wish you the best
I lived in Tokyo for a year, and it's actually quite easy to get a job as a computer engineer there. Several of my friend came with a tourist visa (or Working Holiday visa) and managed to get a visa sponsorship from companies who wanted to hire them. I'm not saying it's super easy, but it is doable. And believe me, there is a shortage of web / mobile engineer in Tokyo.
Finally, don't worry too much about the gap year. Just go there and you'll find something. Go to events and meetups and you ll find plenty of people to talk to. You'll find a lot of opportunities that way.
Wish you the best
Unfortunately my US citizenship precludes the working holiday route. I will look in to attending meetups the next time I'm over there, though.
check out the '500 startups' meetup: https://500startups.jp/bilinguals-gaijins-in-startups/
plenty of startups of their portfolio looking for engineers
you can also have a look at this guy blog: http://www.tokyodev.com/ lots of tips on how to work as a gaijin engineer in japan
you can also have a look at this guy blog: http://www.tokyodev.com/ lots of tips on how to work as a gaijin engineer in japan
You're also welcomed to join the hntokoy slack channel. There was a thread just last week asking exactly the same question.
https://hntokyo.io
https://hntokyo.io
I'll check it out, thank you!
Try to work for a western company -- you will most likely get paid more, and the culture will be much more relaxed. Being in Japan will be enough of a culture shock, imho.
How hard is it to find work in Tokyo for someone that does not speak Japanese? I'm in my mid-20s, at the 'senior' level equivalent at a FAANG company, and willing to take a pay cut for the experience.